Rumoured "mini-nuke/diesel" Submarine SSK-N(?) thread

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
"Taigei"

Hotel* load: 200 kw
Silent+ patrol @ 3 knots: 50 kw
x 24 hours = 6 MWh

/ (ca. 600-700 MWh) = 10 days

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*: It should be noted that the "Hotel" includes the electrical consumption of the sensors and all the devices, which are not few.

+: It should be noted that 3-5 knots in some cases is the same as standing still due to the sea current, on the other hand, higher speed is not convenient for silent patrol so as not to make noise to the passive sonar, which is the great tool in silent hunting.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
"Taigei"

Hotel* load: 200 kw
Silent patrol @ 3 knots: 50 kw
x 24 hours = 6 MWh

/ (ca. 600-700 MWh) = 10 days

---

*: It should be noted that the "Hotel" includes the electrical consumption of the sensors and all the devices, which are not few.

You should compile everything you want to say, discuss or post into one single post (or two if getting too long), instead of posting bits and pieces of posts and wasting page numbers in the process.
 

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
and how can I know in advance for example that someone asks for VLS

anyway thank you very much

it is better to spend time on my project "W20" and its magnificent hydrodynamics

thanks

- immersion
- tauuu chen
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I really don't think you want to put AShBM in something like a 3600t mini nuke.

The South Korean KSS-III is about the same size and equipped with VLS. The smaller Type 212CD is reportedly capable of integrating a VLS as well.

The Dakar submarines that the Israeli Navy currently have on order from TKMS, are expected to be equipped with VLS too, though no idea yet if it's going to be fitted into the hull or the sail. Granted, Israel might be pursuing more of a strategic capability given their "unique circumstances."

Even the Indian Navy's P-75I program appears preferential towards VLS equipped bids.

I agree with you that there are obstacles to and potential tradeoffs in integrating VLS onto relatively smaller platforms.

However, considering recent developments, a VLS equipped "mini nuke SSK" in the 3,500 ton ballpark is not implausible and would arguably align with prevailing trends.

Anytime you launch missiles from a sub, it has to come up to periscope depth to do it, which reduces its stealth.

Modern SLBMs are definitely launchable below periscope depth, so if anything, whether a PLAN submarine will have to be at periscope depth to launch missiles will really depend on how far the PLAN has progressed in terms of subsurface communications technology.

It's one thing for 093B to do it, because it's in the middle of Pacific Ocean and has the speed to scoot away afterward. And no other assets can really deliver missiles against San Diego. You don't get the same rationale for a sub that's just operating within 2IC.

The PLAN has yet to secure the 1C, otherwise Taiwan and the South China Sea would not even make for particularly contestable matters.

While the PLAN is definitely sailing a lot further from Chinese shores these days than even a decade ago, 093Bs are not going to be within striking range of San Diego on a regular basis until the PLAN first secures the 1IC.

How is the PLAN supposed to focus on San Diego when there are more pressing threats closer to home?

Point is if a 093B can make use of VLS cells in waters closer to home that are currently prioritized by the PLAN, so can a "mini nuke SSK," especially given its probable advantages over "more conventional" SSK platforms in terms of speed and endurance.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
"Taigei"

Hotel* load: 200 kw
Silent+ patrol @ 3 knots: 50 kw
x 24 hours = 6 MWh

/ (ca. 600-700 MWh) = 10 days

---

*: It should be noted that the "Hotel" includes the electrical consumption of the sensors and all the devices, which are not few.

+: It should be noted that 3-5 knots in some cases is the same as standing still due to the sea current, on the other hand, higher speed is not convenient for silent patrol so as not to make noise to the passive sonar, which is the great tool in silent hunting.

This still does not include atmospherical control. Which means it still has to come up to snorkel. It's pretty easy to figure out how far a diesel submarine can go in 4 knots and just have your aerial asset fly over there and snuff it out. Diesel subs needing to ventilate pretty much just give the game away.

That's why 320kW AIP still have plenty of constraint in what you can do.

Your solution is better for UUV. Which btw, has its own challenges. As in the AI needs to be able to identify targets correctly.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The South Korean KSS-III is about the same size and equipped with VLS. The smaller Type 212CD is reportedly capable of integrating a VLS as well.

The Dakar submarines that the Israeli Navy currently have on order from TKMS, are expected to be equipped with VLS too, though no idea yet if it's going to be fitted into the hull or the sail. Granted, Israel might be pursuing more of a strategic capability given their "unique circumstances."

Even the Indian Navy's P-75I program appears preferential towards VLS equipped bids.

I agree with you that there are obstacles to and potential tradeoffs in integrating VLS onto relatively smaller platforms.

However, considering recent developments, a VLS equipped "mini nuke SSK" in the 3,500 ton ballpark is not implausible and would arguably align with prevailing trends.

Modern SLBMs are definitely launchable below periscope depth, so if anything, whether a PLAN submarine will have to be at periscope depth to launch missiles will really depend on how far the PLAN has progressed in terms of subsurface communications technology.

The PLAN has yet to secure the 1C, otherwise Taiwan and the South China Sea would not even make for particularly contestable matters.

While the PLAN is definitely sailing a lot further from Chinese shores these days than even a decade ago, 093Bs are not going to be within striking range of San Diego on a regular basis until the PLAN first secures the 1IC.

How is the PLAN supposed to focus on San Diego when there are more pressing threats closer to home?

Point is if a 093B can make use of VLS cells in waters closer to home that are currently prioritized by the PLAN, so can a "mini nuke SSK," especially given its probable advantages over "more conventional" SSK platforms in terms of speed and endurance.
I'm honestly not sure what the obsession is putting capabilities on ships that don't need them.

What is the role of a mini-nuke? What do you need it to do?

China's fire power is overwhelming within 2IC through DFs and aerial assets. But a few VLS/ on mini-nukes don't bring much.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
The South Korean KSS-III is about the same size and equipped with VLS. The smaller Type 212CD is reportedly capable of integrating a VLS as well.

The Dakar submarines that the Israeli Navy currently have on order from TKMS, are expected to be equipped with VLS too, though no idea yet if it's going to be fitted into the hull or the sail. Granted, Israel might be pursuing more of a strategic capability given their "unique circumstances."

Even the Indian Navy's P-75I program appears preferential towards VLS equipped bids.

I agree with you that there are obstacles to and potential tradeoffs in integrating VLS onto relatively smaller platforms.

However, considering recent developments, a VLS equipped "mini nuke SSK" in the 3,500 ton ballpark is not implausible and would arguably align with prevailing trends.



Modern SLBMs are definitely launchable below periscope depth, so if anything, whether a PLAN submarine will have to be at periscope depth to launch missiles will really depend on how far the PLAN has progressed in terms of subsurface communications technology.



The PLAN has yet to secure the 1C, otherwise Taiwan and the South China Sea would not even make for particularly contestable matters.

While the PLAN is definitely sailing a lot further from Chinese shores these days than even a decade ago, 093Bs are not going to be within striking range of San Diego on a regular basis until the PLAN first secures the 1IC.

How is the PLAN supposed to focus on San Diego when there are more pressing threats closer to home?

Point is if a 093B can make use of VLS cells in waters closer to home that are currently prioritized by the PLAN, so can a "mini nuke SSK," especially given its probable advantages over "more conventional" SSK platforms in terms of speed and endurance.

Fleet composition is just as important factor in determining platform capabilities as everything else. Trying to stuff as much capability as possible in a platform is procurement mistake. The KSS-3 is the biggest sub in South Korean arsenal. An increased sprint endurance is far more valuable to PLAN than a few extra VLS it can't deploy rapidly.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm honestly not sure what the obsession is putting capabilities on ships that don't need them.

There's a joke among some defense analysts and PLA watchers. There are actually at least a couple versions to it. Regardless, it might be applicable to our discussion . . .

From a Chinese perspective: "Whatever the Americans have, we should have too." (美国人有的,我们也应该有。)

From an American perspective: "If you want to know what the PLA is working on just figure out what the DoD is funding." Though the opposite is increasingly true too, especially these last few years.

This is obviously a gross generalization, but for a variety of reasons there's substance to the joke.

Ultimately, the Chinese most likely recognize combining auxillary nuclear power with a vertical launch system as one way to make PLAN SSKs more akin to SSNs in terms of capabilities and doctrine, or perhaps even the path of least resistance towards an "all nuclear fleet."

Disclaimer
: By no means am I saying the Chinese are copying the Americans. That's a silly and oversimplified trope, and factually untrue in this instance. However, we'd have to be stupid to deny that the USN sets the bar in terms of submarine warfare, and it makes sense for the PLAN to aim for similar capabilities.

What is the role of a mini-nuke? What do you need it to do?

Fleet composition is just as important factor in determining platform capabilities as everything else. Trying to stuff as much capability as possible in a platform is procurement mistake.

From my limited understanding the Chinese have made significant strides in UUV technology in recent years, and not only operate unmanned platforms that are capable of laying mines and deploying sensors, but also firing torpedos against enemy vessels.

Manned submarines are not going away anytime soon, but the emergence of UUVs inevitably diminishes the role and value of the PLAN SSK fleet for certain missions.

Naturally, as a bureaucracy, the PLAN is going to find new missions for its SSK fleet (or whatever it is to be called), if for no other reason, to keep its sailors employed and its budget flowing. Incorporating a VLS is one way to accomplish that, especially an UVLS of some variety that's compatible with a multitude of missiles for a variety of missions.

China's fire power is overwhelming within 2IC through DFs and aerial assets. But a few VLS/ on mini-nukes don't bring much.

The PLAN isn't going to let the PLARF have all the fun, if for no other reason, for the sake of its own relevance as a sister service competing for funding. The CMC also isn't going to want all its eggs in a single basket.

The KSS-3 is the biggest sub in South Korean arsenal. An increased sprint endurance is far more valuable to PLAN than a few extra VLS it can't deploy rapidly.

Building "SSN-like SSKs" makes sense, especially as UUVs undertake more missions previously performed by SSKs.

How else would you expect relatively larger SSK platforms, with "next generation" AIP technology, in PLAN service or elsewhere to evolve in terms of capabilities?
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
The mini-nuke can use VLS to launch anti-submarine rockets/torpedos at submarines it detects with its passive sonar but which are out of range of normal horizontal tube launched torpedos.

It needs VLS because China needs VLS underwater, no matter what they have above water because what is above water could be destroyed and maybe all they have left is subs.

There is also nothing to stop this sub going deep into the middle of the pacific.
 
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BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
From my limited understanding the Chinese have made significant strides in UUV technology in recent years, and not only operate unmanned platforms that are capable of laying mines and deploying sensors, but also firing torpedos against enemy vessels.

Manned submarines are not going away anytime soon, but the emergence of UUVs inevitably diminishes the role and value of the PLAN SSK fleet for certain missions.

Naturally, as a bureaucracy, the PLAN is going to find new missions for its SSK fleet (or whatever it is to be called), if for no other reason, to keep its sailors employed and its budget flowing. Incorporating a VLS is one way to accomplish that, especially an UVLS of some variety that's compatible with a multitude of missiles for a variety of missions.
SSKs will indeed go lower in prominence but that will be because of the rise of Chinese air power and SSN fleet. UUVs have a long way to go to match even small SSKs in mission complexity. There is no AI that can interpret tactical picture from very limited information an underwater platform has.
The PLAN isn't going to let the PLARF have all the fun, if for no other reason, for the sake of its own relevance as a sister service competing for funding. The CMC also isn't going to want all its eggs in a single basket.
That kind of interservice competition doesn't exist in PLA, thankfully. Strike capacity is nowhere in a single basket either. They already have the world's highest variety strike complex, which is going get many more options soon with the 095, H-20 and large UAVs like the GJ-11.
Building "SSN-like SSKs" makes sense, especially as UUVs undertake more missions previously performed by SSKs.

How else would you expect relatively larger SSK platforms, with "next generation" AIP technology, in PLAN service or elsewhere to evolve in terms of capabilities?
SSN-like-SSK doesn't make sense unless it is much cheaper. The entire behind SSKN is, if it is real at all, a small reactor below 10 MW eliminating the need for most snorkeling while being meaningfully cheaper than a ~200 MW reactor a full SSN would have.
 
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