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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Europe’s greatest strength was its divisions. The constant competition drove change with adoption of new ideas and methodology. Asian powers which tended to more centralized often became stagnant over time due to organizational rot within. A unified Europe is now facing the same issues as its historic Asian counterparts as the bureaucratic corruption and inefficiency destroys its distinctive advantages.
Modern wars are just too destructive for that model of operations to continue in Europe. Unfortunately a lot of people seem to have forgotten about that so here they go again.

Also, for all the talk about how NATO is an "unique" phenomenon historically in Europe I think that is plain BS. As if the Holy Roman Empire had not been precisely that. A sort of military compact between multiple nations.
 
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D

Deleted member 23272

Guest
Asia's history does not differ from Europe much. WW2, the Sino-Japanese war, and prior to that the Taiping war etc all caused similar effects to Europe's Napoleon, WW1 and WW2.

China is the union of about as many people as comprises the whole west, and has a similar economic and industrial output as well. So it can hardly be said that unification projects in Asia didn't work, if anything, it has progressed more than European unification in many ways.

In the past, even just within the last 200 years, the area comprising China has always been subject to wars over continental control. Today, theres unity of purpose and goals, different areas inside China are able to fully help less developed areas into achieving economic goals. Isn't that the whole point of the "western civilization"? To realize between 1-2 billion the union of language, government, purpose and economic development aid?

The dissent of Korea and Japan in Asia is not that different from the dissent of the Arabs and the Slavs in the West. The stronger the beacon of unification shines in the region, the more threatened those who are excluded feel.

They need to be eventually dealt with through both carrot and stick. Being also a de facto empire, China should learn from the first hand successes and failures of it's Western counterpart at subjugating the dissenters.
There is a difference in that European wars were fought by nations that more or less were on even footing with eachother and in peacetime heavily exchanged people, ideas, and culture, while in East Asia you had backwater nations that were at the mercy of the modern European powers and Japan. That's why I said in my OP nationalism is perceived differently. In Europe, especially the obvious candidate Germany, there is a sentiment that nationalism created unecessary conflict when the nations had so much in common with eachother.

On the flipside, immigrants to Western countries already feel a sense of humiliation being discouraged from speaking their native tongue, so imagine for several decades a foreign army made it so that people couldn't even speak their native tongue in their own land. Since many Asian nations only recently came out of colonialism, that's why nationalism is held more closely to the chest.

It took a war for Europe to get out of its mindset and I doubt one in Asia will pop up that's devastating enough, nor should we hope that one does. That's why I say the mutual enmities and nationalism no matter how far we develop might be here to stay. Pop culture exchange can only go so far, since political interests will be there to stay and determine policy.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Just because its existed for only 80 years doesn't change the fact that Europe admirrably did find a way to settle mutual hostilities and create the degree of integration that we see today in the EU. It may not be perfect, but better compared to Asia, where Koreans and Vietnamese are willing to throw fists if anyone suggests that the way they used Chinese characters or celebrate Lunar New Year has any historical relation to China. It really does come down to history, since Europe was ruined by two World Wars driven by nationalism, while in Asia nationalism is what preserved culture and spurred revolutionary movements during colonialism. It persists today as China and Vietnam are still developing, while Korea despite being 1st world was still a poor country up until the 70s, and while the EU is politically united most Asian nations have their own interests.

But I guess for Europe after WW2 it helped the continent's hegemon became a country an ocean away, while for East Asia China is the most obvious candidate for hegemon. For everyone's sake, let's hope there won't be a regional war the same way Europe experienced one, but that means that even the playing field in terms of development is level the East Asian mindset will continue being one of eternal bickering.
Europe have been through the devastation of the world wars to teach them a lesson about the horrors of war. The Americans and the Soviets made sure that the whole world knew the horrors of fascism. It worked, until recently, where neo-fascism is becoming fashionable again. Only time will tell if the Europeans and Americans can manage to pull back from fascism before it starts another big war. The war in Ukraine is unfortunately showing that Europe is getting more tolerant of fascism. Some Europeans have even started to celebrate fascism. The trajectory for Europe is not looking optimistic.

In Asia, one of the biggest tragedy since the WW2 is the whitewashing of Imperial Japan by the Americans and other non-Chinese, and non-Korean Asians. All the ethnic Chinese and Koreans remembered the horrors of Japanese war crimes. But the other Asians choose to ignore it, or whitewash it thanks to American and Japanese propaganda. Because of that, many non-Chinese Asians felt that this is a Japanese - Chinese feud. Some with beef with the Chinese even glorified the Japanese atrocities, because it helped to soothe their sick racist egos. For example, certain Filipinos, Indians, and Malay Malaysians. These racist pr*cks think that by aligning with the Japanese, it somehow makes them feel superior against the Chinese. This is no different to the Ukrainian neo-nazis today. Though fortunately most Asians are neither as militaristic, nor as viciously violent as the Ukrainian Nazis.

Fortunately, China is too powerful to be screwed over today. Hence many of the anti-China belligerent Asian nations cannot act on their threats. South Korea, Vietnam, and India have got their asses kicked for trying to screw with China. The Japanese like to posture alot, but are not looking forward to face the Chinese in a real war. The Filipinos are a slight exception. They have not have faced China before in a proper fight, so some of them appear to be itching for a fight. Fortunately, they have not gone too far for now. Therefore, whatever is China's benevolent vision for Asia, there is no substitute for power. Power keeps China safe from the worse tendencies of its neighbours. That is why I'm a big advocate for more China military buildup. Peace is never free. There is always a price to pay. Better to pay it in military spending than lives lost.
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Speaking as a Chinese and a student of history, we're the same before 1800's with the present Collective West in terms of attitude, We see ourselves as exceptional and invented the word Chauvinist...lol 中国 means middle kingdom and others as barbarian, it makes Joseph Borrell GARDEN look tame in comparison, we even build a wall to state that fact...lol

History is being written now as Xi had told Putin "the likes we haven't seen in 100 years", So I expect the Collective West will have their moments, I hope it may not last a hundred years like the Chinese had experience. And this time the Chinese will be the one who will implement those Changes...lol Karma sure is a bitch. ;)
An aside: What's your view on Pres. Duterte's trip and actual one on one meetings with China's leaders, especially able to meet Pres. Xi Jinping. I can already tell, read the usual political bashing Duterte will get from your country's media that are brazenly pro-America.

What's the angle and raison for Duterte to spend his political capital on a trip that's riddled with uncertainty and attacks that are forthcoming against him and his daughter that's being sidelined by the incumbent President Marcos Jr.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just because its existed for only 80 years doesn't change the fact that Europe admirrably did find a way to settle mutual hostilities and create the degree of integration that we see today in the EU. It may not be perfect, but better compared to Asia, where Koreans and Vietnamese are willing to throw fists if anyone suggests that the way they used Chinese characters or celebrate Lunar New Year has any historical relation to China. It really does come down to history, since Europe was ruined by two World Wars driven by nationalism, while in Asia nationalism is what preserved culture and spurred revolutionary movements during colonialism. It persists today as China and Vietnam are still developing, while Korea despite being 1st world was still a poor country up until the 70s, and while the EU is politically united most Asian nations have their own interests.

But I guess for Europe after WW2 it helped the continent's hegemon became a country an ocean away, while for East Asia China is the most obvious candidate for hegemon. For everyone's sake, let's hope there won't be a regional war the same way Europe experienced one, but that means that even the playing field in terms of development is level the East Asian mindset will continue being one of eternal bickering.
EU is politically united in the sense that they're equal vassals of the hegemon. Basically after WW2 destroyed their independent empires, they accepted that they cannot be emperor but are allowed to be princes and governors of the new empire. Good enough for them.

Japan and SK are also allowed to be minor princes and governors, and took the deal, because Japan tried to take the emperor's throne, failed, and are thankful they weren't destroyed for it but merely lost their freedom. Who wouldn't be grateful to such a merciful lord? Their bickering doesn't matter, as they're firmly in the imperial orbit.

Russia is outside the empire. China is outside the empire. Fundamentally, we're Persians, Mongols, barbarians now. That's fine. 我蛮夷也。
 

pmc

Colonel
Registered Member
Japan and SK are also allowed to be minor princes and governors, and took the deal, because Japan tried to take the emperor's throne, failed, and are thankful they weren't destroyed for it but merely lost their freedom. Who wouldn't be grateful to such a merciful lord? Their bickering doesn't matter, as they're firmly in the imperial orbit.
They are not as controlled as people think. much more freedom to pursue own interests as they know there demographic limitation. infact China and US rivalry will benefit them by gaining even more importance. they are part of new Europe project that will send old Europe into dumpster. back in days huge number of Toyotas were given to ISIS but no body figure out how it happened. and there support to Ukraine is very measured. just enough financial support to keep Europeans in there path to de risking.
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