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tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Speaking as a Chinese and a student of history, we're the same before 1800's with the present Collective West in terms of attitude, We see ourselves as exceptional and invented the word Chauvinist...lol 中国 means middle kingdom and others as barbarian, it makes Joseph Borrell GARDEN look tame in comparison, we even build a wall to state that fact...lol

History is being written now as Xi had told Putin "the likes we haven't seen in 100 years", So I expect the Collective West will have their moments, I hope it may not last a hundred years like the Chinese had experience. And this time the Chinese will be the one who will implement those Changes...lol Karma sure is a bitch. ;)

Although the longer it lasts the more they can be positively shaped...
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
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While this article has some interesting points. It is unfortunately not too accurate when it talks about Europe and Asia.

“No matter how blonde you dye your hair, how sharp you shape your nose, you can never become a European or American, you can never become a Westerner,” Wang said.
Lol! Love this quote from Wang Yi. Tell that to the Japanese and South Koreans.

As it happens, Asia is a much more fiercely nationalistic region than Europe. This is because its ideology, even for the democracies, is not universalist or premised on ‘shared values’. Rather, a history of colonialism, combined with unresolved conflicts with their neighbours, have left Asian nations with a more lingering sense of security and defensiveness. This makes them patriotic, as opposed to the idea of embracing a ‘common heritage’.
While it is true that nationalism is very fierce in Asia. I disagree that it is more so than in Europe. European nationalism is legendary. We all know that.

For example, does it bother European nations that aspects of their own heritage and culture are derived from the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome? Of course not, this is a shared ‘European’ sentiment. But in Asia, the idea of a shared cultural heritage, even when it is explicitly obvious, is taboo. Koreans react with rage whenever China lays claim to anything in their culture or dares to argue they invented it.
This is quite misleading. Yes, most Europeans don't mind sharing a 'shared heritage' from Greece or Rome. But that hasn't stopped Europeans from hating one another in ways that only very few in Asia can rival. Hasn't the author observed European history for millennia? How many wars were fought in Europe. Wars for land, glory, religion, royal ego, and race? Two of these were World Wars. Europe was a hostile place for thousands of years. The current relative peace in Western Europe is only about 80 years old. It's a just brief period compared to the entirety of European history.

In the Euro-Atlantic region, NATO functions because it utilises Western universalism in the name of ‘shared values’. But in East Asia, this is simply non-applicable as it is every nation for itself.
The only reason the Europeans stopped fighting is because they were exhausted by the two world wars. Sure, there is that American leadership, and the Soviet menace. But the Europeans only agreed to follow the American lead because they were a spent force.

EU and NATO did keep some semblance of peace in Europe, until it doesn't. Even after 80 years, this relative European peace is not looking too good already. Today, Eastern Europe is on fire. Western Europe don't look as united as they were 30 years ago. There was that Brexit, and disputes happening in the EU and NATO.

Right now, NATO unites the Western nations because there are 'enemies' to beat up together with America's backing. America is that frame that holds NATO together. When America finally loses its power and influence to control Europe, I think Europe is gonna return to it's old self.

Anyway, it is also wrong to assume that China is seeking to create it's own 'NATO' in Asia. China does desire its own hegemony, but not in the form of NATO. China desires to return to being the centre of gravity in Asia, not as the domineering and cruel hegemon like the US.

China of course would very much like to create a shared notion of ‘Asianness’ in the value sense in order to expel the US, but it has not been effective at all in doing this. It will have to do a better job to persuade them that it is not a return to Qing Dynasty Tributary arrangements. Otherwise, the US can exploit these divisions perpetually to maintain its presence.
China becoming the centre of gravity of East Asia where other smaller states become tributaries is actually the natural order of things. The main reason why that is not happening now is because of the balance of power.

When China was the main power in East Asia. Korea, Japan, and Vietnam were tributary states. When China disappeared, the Europeans, and then the Americans filled up that power vacuum with their imperialism. Now when China is coming back, these ex-tributaries are using the US to balance China out, thus keeping what's left of the privilege that they've accumulated when China was down.

But the day will eventually come where American power declines in Asia. These tributary states will have little choice but to eventually flock back to China. This is what the balance of power does. I disagree that China should have to convince them that it is not the Qing Dynasty. But China should be proud to tell them that it is the exactly the new Qing, or Ming, or Han Dynasty. What was so horrible about the old tributary system? It was nothing compared to the colonialism of the Western powers and Imperial Japan.

China shouldn't worry about how whether these ex-tributaries wanna rejoin the tributary system. China should just worry about beating the US. When he US is out of Asia, these tributaries will eventually rejoin the tributary system.
 

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
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Xi meets former Philippine president​

F1PIkhTaUAEZM8q.jpg
BEIJING, July 17 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping met with former Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte on Monday at the Diaoyutai State Guesthouse in Beijing.

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Maybe Xi asked something along the lines of "so when is your daughter going to overthrow this **** ?"
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
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Xi meets former Philippine president​

View attachment 116001


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Maybe Xi asked something along the lines of "so when is your daughter going to overthrow this **** ?"
Incredible, Xi personally meet Duterte, a private person while he kept Brandon a US president at arm's length....lol That's show you the respect Xi bestowed to Duterte.

Here is my take, that meeting is to assuage Xi about the political development in the Philippine, so what will he do? He will return to politics to challenge Marcos, setting his sight for the 2025 congressional election to expand and galvanized his political base and to ensure his daughter victory in 2028. Remember Marcos overwhelming victory is due to him and his daughter support, now its payback time and I think Marcos is hiding under his bed shaking in fear...lol
 
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supersnoop

Colonel
Registered Member

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Incredible, Xi personally meet Duterte, a private person while he kept Brandon a US president at arm's length....lol That's show you the respect Xi bestowed to Duterte.

Here is my take, that meeting is to assuage Xi about the political development in the Philippine, so what will he do? He will return to politics to challenge Marcos, setting his sight for the 2025 congressional election to expand and galvanized his political base and to ensure his daughter victory in 2028. Remember Marcos overwhelming victory is due to him and his daughter support, now its payback time and I think Marcos is hiding under his bed shaking in fear...lol
Appointing an American puppet is only a W if said puppet delivers on its promises. If it fails to provide, America will be in a worse position regarding the locals' goodwill than even before, when there was a neutral admin, because the locals have done a trial period under US rule and found it far inferior to independence.

America forgets that the enemy always gets a vote. Failure to make Marcos useful will bite them in the ass.
 
D

Deleted member 23272

Guest
This is quite misleading. Yes, most Europeans don't mind sharing a 'shared heritage' from Greece or Rome. But that hasn't stopped Europeans from hating one another in ways that only very few in Asia can rival. Hasn't the author observed European history for millennia? How many wars were fought in Europe. Wars for land, glory, religion, royal ego, and race? Two of these were World Wars. Europe was a hostile place for thousands of years. The current relative peace in Western Europe is only about 80 years old. It's a just brief period compared to the entirety of European history.
Just because its existed for only 80 years doesn't change the fact that Europe admirrably did find a way to settle mutual hostilities and create the degree of integration that we see today in the EU. It may not be perfect, but better compared to Asia, where Koreans and Vietnamese are willing to throw fists if anyone suggests that the way they used Chinese characters or celebrate Lunar New Year has any historical relation to China. It really does come down to history, since Europe was ruined by two World Wars driven by nationalism, while in Asia nationalism is what preserved culture and spurred revolutionary movements during colonialism. It persists today as China and Vietnam are still developing, while Korea despite being 1st world was still a poor country up until the 70s, and while the EU is politically united most Asian nations have their own interests.

But I guess for Europe after WW2 it helped the continent's hegemon became a country an ocean away, while for East Asia China is the most obvious candidate for hegemon. For everyone's sake, let's hope there won't be a regional war the same way Europe experienced one, but that means that even the playing field in terms of development is level the East Asian mindset will continue being one of eternal bickering.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Just because its existed for only 80 years doesn't change the fact that Europe admirrably did find a way to settle mutual hostilities and create the degree of integration that we see today in the EU. It may not be perfect, but better compared to Asia, where Koreans and Vietnamese are willing to throw fists if anyone suggests that the way they used Chinese characters or celebrate Lunar New Year has any historical relation to China. It really does come down to history, since Europe was ruined by two World Wars driven by nationalism, while in Asia nationalism is what preserved culture and spurred revolutionary movements during colonialism. It persists today as China and Vietnam are still developing, while Korea despite being 1st world was still a poor country up until the 70s, and while the EU is politically united most Asian nations have their own interests.

But I guess for Europe after WW2 it helped the continent's hegemon became a country an ocean away, while for East Asia China is the most obvious candidate for hegemon. For everyone's sake, let's hope there won't be a regional war the same way Europe experienced one, but that means that even the playing field in terms of development is level the East Asian mindset will continue being one of eternal bickering.
Europe’s greatest strength was its divisions. The constant competition drove change with adoption of new ideas and methodology. Asian powers which tended to more centralized often became stagnant over time due to organizational rot within. A unified Europe is now facing the same issues as its historic Asian counterparts as the bureaucratic corruption and inefficiency destroys its distinctive advantages.
 

pmc

Colonel
Registered Member
Not sure what are you referring to?

If you're saying it's about managing expectations, then what you're really saying is everything is a propaganda show.

Why use the term managing expectations when what you mean it is all a propaganda show?

In this case, not sure who you are accusing of doing the propaganda show. IMHO, neither side is doing any of that between the EU and China.

It is pretty clear at this point, what each side wants, and how each side views the other.


IMHO the key to understanding Europe and China relations is what they want from each other, and how they view each other. And all that rests on there are three Europes.

One Europe does not want to see, its interests in Africa overrun by China. Fine, China and France can come to some sort of understanding.

Another Europe does not want to see it business profits disappear. Fine, China and Germany can just continue doing what they are doing, as long as they understand each other.

The rest of Europe, the third part collectively speaking, have a non-China policy as its China policy, which means two things. 1) They will be largely ignored. 2) They will not be able to execute their contradictory non-China policy as its China policy.

Contrast the third Europe, who cannot execute their non-existent China policy, with the other two Europes who will implement and execute their China policy.

The prime examples of the third Europe, really are England, Netherlands, and Poland. After ties soured between England and China, no more talk about London being a RMB trading hub. People have moved on. Netherlands outside of ASML, not sure what they can offer. Kind of like last chance for them for their China policy. Poland has a good trading relationship with China. That is about it, if they can find a better source, the all the best to them.

China is satisfied enough with it relations with the three Europes.

Two out of three parts of Europe is satisfied enough with it relations with China.

That third part of Europe is not satisfied, because they might not have any relevance left anymore, and they cannot get the two other parts of Europe with deep interests and relevance to be on the same page.
you are assuming this is 1950s which is not. and your second assumption of this de risking will have no impact. even low to mid level manufacturing can have substantial impact on employment. look at Mexico.
de risking is Europe policy now. It does not matter whether they are actually implementing but they have confidence in there ability to tell every one about de risking. the response to de risking is clarification about partnership. this sending a weak signal. Others like Japan and Korea also visiting Gulf Arabs and they have alot of influence in Africa to make and break things. didnot Macron gone quiet after riots he was very enthusiastic about visiting South Africa. i think Arabs can make a way for him.
Japan basically acknowledge Saudi are sole leaders and they have practically no interest with others which are not part of new Europe. If this new Europe is successful others will have to follow. watch that video that i posted. why would they tolerate anything that has worked against there historic role?
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Just because its existed for only 80 years doesn't change the fact that Europe admirrably did find a way to settle mutual hostilities and create the degree of integration that we see today in the EU. It may not be perfect, but better compared to Asia, where Koreans and Vietnamese are willing to throw fists if anyone suggests that the way they used Chinese characters or celebrate Lunar New Year has any historical relation to China. It really does come down to history, since Europe was ruined by two World Wars driven by nationalism, while in Asia nationalism is what preserved culture and spurred revolutionary movements during colonialism. It persists today as China and Vietnam are still developing, while Korea despite being 1st world was still a poor country up until the 70s, and while the EU is politically united most Asian nations have their own interests.

But I guess for Europe after WW2 it helped the continent's hegemon became a country an ocean away, while for East Asia China is the most obvious candidate for hegemon. For everyone's sake, let's hope there won't be a regional war the same way Europe experienced one, but that means that even the playing field in terms of development is level the East Asian mindset will continue being one of eternal bickering.
Asia's history does not differ from Europe much. WW2, the Sino-Japanese war, and prior to that the Taiping war etc all caused similar effects to Europe's Napoleon, WW1 and WW2.

China is the union of about as many people as comprises the whole west, and has a similar economic and industrial output as well. So it can hardly be said that unification projects in Asia didn't work, if anything, it has progressed more than European unification in many ways.

In the past, even just within the last 200 years, the area comprising China has always been subject to wars over continental control. Today, theres unity of purpose and goals, different areas inside China are able to fully help less developed areas into achieving economic goals. Isn't that the whole point of the "western civilization"? To realize between 1-2 billion the union of language, government, purpose and economic development aid?

The dissent of Korea and Japan in Asia is not that different from the dissent of the Arabs and the Slavs in the West. The stronger the beacon of unification shines in the region, the more threatened those who are excluded feel.

They need to be eventually dealt with through both carrot and stick. Being also a de facto empire, China should learn from the first hand successes and failures of it's Western counterpart at subjugating the dissenters.
 
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