The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

crobato said:

J-8B before mod -> PL-5 and PL-8
J-8B after mod -> that plus PL-11

J-8I -> PL-2 and PL-5
J-8E (J-8I after mod) -> plus PL-8

J-8D same as J-8B after mod.
J-8H same as J-8D after mod. No change in armament however.
J-8H after mod -> plus PL-12 same as J-8F

Lets put it in another way.

J-8D before mod = J-8B after mod
J-8H before mod = J-8D after mod
J-8F (current) = J-8H after mod

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So the J-8D and H are more or less the same but with different avionic, radar and engine (nothing in terms of weapons) and the H has been upgraded to carry the PL-12?

So the J-8D and H are more or less the same but with different avionic, radar and engine (nothing in terms of weapons) and the H has been upgraded to carry the PL-12?

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I think the J-8H can easily be upgraded to carry the PL-12. I believe if the PL-12 is already on development when the Type 1471 radar is ushered, then provisions for a later update would have been included into the radar.

Many J-8D are converted directly with the radar using the PL-12 if the conversion happens after 2004. In other words, any J-8D being upgraded after 2004 would be PL-12 capable. J-8D upgraded to J-8H before that or any J-8H made brand new before 2004, will need a relatively minor update (electronic and software modification) to enable PL-12.

crobato said:

I think the J-8H can easily be upgraded to carry the PL-12. I believe if the PL-12 is already on development when the Type 1471 radar is ushered, then provisions for a later update would have been included into the radar.

Many J-8D are converted directly with the radar using the PL-12 if the conversion happens after 2004. In other words, any J-8D being upgraded after 2004 would be PL-12 capable. J-8D upgraded to J-8H before that or any J-8H made brand new before 2004, will need a relatively minor update (electronic and software modification) to enable PL-12.

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Interesting, it all sounds so fluid, so more or less all J-8D/H/Fs other than radar and engines and some minor fence size difference are the same more or less? This is all very interesting, is there any article on this, I'd like to read more!

I picked this up by gathering pieces here and there, and look at the most logical way of doing things and by studying parallels with other aircraft around the world.

Yes it all sounds so fluid and seamless. Gradual with little risk. That's consistent to the way the PLA does things. Very evolutionary and conservative. Constantly fixing things.

This does not mean they tried something more radical like experimented on a J-8II ATX with movable front canards back in the mid 90s. But the project was eventually canned.

crobato said:

I picked this up by gathering pieces here and there, and look at the most logical way of doing things and by studying parallels with other aircraft around the world.

Yes it all sounds so fluid and seamless. Gradual with little risk. That's consistent to the way the PLA does things. Very evolutionary and conservative. Constantly fixing things.

This does not mean they tried something more radical like experimented on a J-8II ATX with movable front canards back in the mid 90s. But the project was eventually canned.

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Hmm, would you say the J-8II was from the outset designed to be something akin to, say the MiG-31? (althought not as heavy!) As still an interceptor but also a more 'well-rounded' multi-role fourth generation interceptor that just met with a lot of setback with radar and missile technology? From what I've read that seems to be the case, especially based on the listed PLAAF requirements but then again until recently, the PLAAF have been known to make wildly ridiculous demands from Chengdu and Shenyang.

Also from what it seems, the earlier block J-8Bs have been upgraded to J-8D standards but it seems that these J-8Bs will not be upgraded to J-8H standards? Any proof to this?

Semi-Lobster said:

Hmm, would you say the J-8II was from the outset designed to be something akin to, say the MiG-31? (althought not as heavy!) As still an interceptor but also a more 'well-rounded' multi-role fourth generation interceptor that just met with a lot of setback with radar and missile technology? From what I've read that seems to be the case, especially based on the listed PLAAF requirements but then again until recently, the PLAAF have been known to make wildly ridiculous demands from Chengdu and Shenyang.

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I would say it was designed more like the F-106 Delta Dart in mind, a kind of national homeland defense interceptor against strategic bombers. There is a mission alignment with the MiG-31 there but the MiG-25/31 is far more powerful and flies even faster with much bigger radars and missile load.

Also from what it seems, the earlier block J-8Bs have been upgraded to J-8D standards but it seems that these J-8Bs will not be upgraded to J-8H standards? Any proof to this?

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What you say is correct. No proof is needed because it is the statement to the contrary (that the planes are upgraded) that has the requisite of proof. None of the "fixed" J-8Bs have been seen upgraded to J-8H standards.

I thought a proper thread to discuss the older and (mostly) retired aircraft of the PLAAF and PLANAF was in order, hopefully this thread can be a hub of discussion for older aircraft.

So here's my first question. A lot of sites talk about the 'J-4' but from what I understand that the J-4 designation was never used. Was I wrong or are there just a lot of incorrect info floating around? Secondly I'm having trouble getting more information on the J-3 and J-2... I know they exist but finding sites on them in English or Chinese is kind of hard (they all re-direct to speculation pages on the J-13 and J-14) Also, who buit these aircraft, were they all imported from Russia? Also, I assume there was never a J-1 because I've never heard of it being mentioned.

Secondly, does anybody have any information on the 'Shenyang FT-1' ? Did it ever enter production?

Thirdly a question about the cancelled Nanchang (now Hongdu) J-12. Does anybody have a site detailing its history of development? I know it was mean't to meet a PLAAF requirement for a light, STOL, but, it was only 10 metres long! It seems like a fighter designed from another era with more in common with the Folland Gnat than the F-5.

crobato said:

I would say it was designed more like the F-106 Delta Dart in mind, a kind of national homeland defense interceptor against strategic bombers. There is a mission alignment with the MiG-31 there but the MiG-25/31 is far more powerful and flies even faster with much bigger radars and missile load.

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Well I referring to the J-8II, from the development history I have read, while, like the original J-8, the J-8II was supposed to be primarily an interceptor, there seems to have been a great deal of emphasis on increasing performance and solving technological problems like BVR and MRAAM technology.

What you say is correct. No proof is needed because it is the statement to the contrary (that the planes are upgraded) that has the requisite of proof. None of the "fixed" J-8Bs have been seen upgraded to J-8H standards.

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Sounds interesting, any source stating definitivly that the gap between the J-8B to J-8D/H/F is insurmountable? I guess its because of the previously mentioned airframe?

Its not a technology issue. Its just that by now the J-8B airframes are getting old. If you upgrade the J-8Bs, you're putting money on an airframe with already limited flight hour life. Its a waste of money. You should just retire the old airframe and build new fighters.

The J-5 was the first jet fighter China actually started to produce. That would be the MiG-17. Prior to that, MiG-15s had all been imported, but none domestically produced.

The first jet fighter ever imported to China and wore the PLAAF insignia was the MiG-9. That was based on a secret project Messerschmitt concocted in the closing days of World War II. A few of these aircraft are still in some museums in China.