The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

Yes there has been a brochure out of the Type 1471 in Zhuhai. Basically reveals it has a lock on range around 75km, and has quite a number of operating modes, including all the basic ones like VS, TWS, STT, etc,., and a few more like Sea Search, indicating that the radar has already been navalized. In contrast the Zhuk-8II isn't navalized and does not have sea support, though the Zhuk that goes into the MiG-29K should be.

crobato said:

Yes there has been a brochure out of the Type 1471 in Zhuhai. Basically reveals it has a lock on range around 75km, and has quite a number of operating modes, including all the basic ones like VS, TWS, STT, etc,., and a few more like Sea Search, indicating that the radar has already been navalized. In contrast the Zhuk-8II isn't navalized and does not have sea support, though the Zhuk that goes into the MiG-29K should be.

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So we can easily assume that the Type 1492 is 'better' than the Type 1471 in a unspecific, indistinct performance wise kind of way rather than operating mode capabilities as the Type 1471 has a rather comprehensive set. IIRC the Type 1471 is the radar used by the J-8H and the older J-8IIs being upgraded to J-8H standards, with a navalised radar I guess that why it's designated 'Hai' (海 Sea). Speaking of the J-8H, other than being a standard to upgrade existing J-8B and J-8Ds, it had a rather miniscule production run, what was really the point of even formally introducing it? Sure it was an important first step for the J-8II series with look-down/shoot-up and BVR and other such stuff but after only a couple of years was immediately replaced by the superior J-8F.

Semi-Lobster said:

So we can easily assume that the Type 1492 is 'better' than the Type 1471 in a unspecific, indistinct performance wise kind of way rather than operating mode capabilities as the Type 1471 has a rather comprehensive set. IIRC the Type 1471 is the radar used by the J-8H and the older J-8IIs being upgraded to J-8H standards, with a navalised radar I guess that why it's designated 'Hai' (海 Sea). Speaking of the J-8H, other than being a standard to upgrade existing J-8B and J-8Ds, it had a rather miniscule production run, what was really the point of even formally introducing it? Sure it was an important first step for the J-8II series with look-down/shoot-up and BVR and other such stuff but after only a couple of years was immediately replaced by the superior J-8F.

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well yeah, the ones they put on J-8 and the ones they put in air shows are obviously not going to be as good as the ones they put on J-10. What they showcase to public certainly isn't going to be best offering. They wouldn't want US to know the capability of these radars.

Semi-Lobster said:

So we can easily assume that the Type 1492 is 'better' than the Type 1471 in a unspecific, indistinct performance wise kind of way rather than operating mode capabilities as the Type 1471 has a rather comprehensive set.

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I would describe it as being analogous to comparing the early versions of the APG-68 (the F-16C's set) vs. the later versions of the APG-68.

IIRC the Type 1471 is the radar used by the J-8H and the older J-8IIs being upgraded to J-8H standards, with a navalised radar I guess that why it's designated 'Hai' (海 Sea).

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Yes appears that way. But its also used with the PLAAF as well.

Speaking of the J-8H, other than being a standard to upgrade existing J-8B and J-8Ds, it had a rather miniscule production run, what was really the point of even formally introducing it? Sure it was an important first step for the J-8II series with look-down/shoot-up and BVR and other such stuff but after only a couple of years was immediately replaced by the superior J-8F.

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I think the change from J-8H to J-8F is rather evolutionary, with electronic and software improvements in the radar that enhances its performance and additional support for things like the PL-12. This kind of upgrades can be done on the J-8H as well. You can introduce something with a short run if you plan to upgrade it to the same standard as the next run.

From the sneaky internet rumour mill, there is always talk about the WP-14 being installed onto J-8H/Fs which are still of course unconfirmed for obvious reasons (they look very similiar). Perhaps at the next Zhuhai they'll make an official statement. Also the J-8H/F use a different airframe from the older J-8B/D. What exactly is the difference?

crobato said:

Yes there has been a brochure out of the Type 1471 in Zhuhai. Basically reveals it has a lock on range around 75km, and has quite a number of operating modes, including all the basic ones like VS, TWS, STT, etc,., and a few more like Sea Search, indicating that the radar has already been navalized. In contrast the Zhuk-8II isn't navalized and does not have sea support, though the Zhuk that goes into the MiG-29K should be.

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I read that on the 1996 version of J-8IIM, equipped with Zhuk-8II, it's capable of using the Kh-31A/AS-17 anti-ship missile. Does lacking sea search function in the air-to-ground attack mode still allow the aircraft to use anti-ship missiles effectively? And if so, does it mean the aircraft will have shorter lock-on range on sea targets?

Semi-Lobster said:

<snip>
Speaking of the J-8H, other than being a standard to upgrade existing J-8B and J-8Ds, it had a rather minuscule production run, what was really the point of even formally introducing it? Sure it was an important first step for the J-8II series with look-down/shoot-up and BVR and other such stuff but after only a couple of years was immediately replaced by the superior J-8F.
<snip>
From the sneaky internet rumor mill, there is always talk about the WP-14 being installed onto J-8H/Fs which are still of course unconfirmed for obvious reasons (they look very similar). Perhaps at the next Zhuhai they'll make an official statement. Also the J-8H/F use a different airframe from the older J-8B/D. What exactly is the difference?

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It's interesting to note that in western aviation industry, many good upgrade projects for existing/older aircraft are scrapped in fear of endangering new projects. For example, the F-4 Phantom II platform still had a lot of room for expansion in 1980s, but the USAF and Boeing withdrew from F-4X/RF-4X and F-4-2000/Kumas 2000 projects because the upgraded potential was "too good" and they didn't want it to endanger other projects.

In comparison, the Chinese aviation industry is allowed to produce many upgraded vairants, and the state is willing to purchase them in small batches. The J-8-II is based on somewhat obsolete technology, but SAC was allowed to continue producing new models. Perhaps it's because the military aviation industry leans more toward central/state planning versus US style competitive bidding? In the US, aviation companies battle for the contract, and there is only one winner, i.e. YF-22 vs. YF-23.

I'd also speculate that the Chinese military aviation industry is still in the growth phase, and the government is willing to fund them so they can gain valuable R&D experience over time. In contrast, western and Russian military industries already gone through the Cold War growth and decline, so they're more in the consolidation phase.

From the sneaky internet rumor mill, there is always talk about the WP-14 being installed onto J-8H/Fs which are still of course unconfirmed for obvious reasons (they look very similar)

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Its impossible to tell really, although I believe the J-8H use the WP-13B and the J-8F uses the WP-14.

Also the J-8H/F use a different airframe from the older J-8B/D. What exactly is the difference?

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No. The J-8D and the J-8B are the ones with the different airframes, although they both look similar. The only tell tale identification is the tip of the tail. In reality, the J-8D airframe is slightly heavier, but is much beefier. It represents the first major design overhaul of the J-8II series. The beefier airframe allows for more payloads, as well as being able to handle higher G-forces. Of course, the air frame life may have been strengthened as a result. The resulting heavier airframe is matched to the WP-13B engine, which is more powerful than the WP-13AII used in the previous model.

The J-8H takes the same J-8D airframe and made the two wing fences both large and equal sized. In the J-8D, one of the wing fences is smaller.

I read that on the 1996 version of J-8IIM, equipped with Zhuk-8II, it's capable of using the Kh-31A/AS-17 anti-ship missile. Does lacking sea search function in the air-to-ground attack mode still allow the aircraft to use anti-ship missiles effectively? And if so, does it mean the aircraft will have shorter lock-on range on sea targets?

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Officially its called this version is called F-8IIM, not J-8IIM. Note the F. The missile is not the Kh-31A ASM but the Kh-31P ARM, which means it was intended to attack SAM radars like Wild Weasels.

crobato said:

Its impossible to tell really, although I believe the J-8H use the WP-13B and the J-8F uses the WP-14.

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I thought it was going to be a standard upgrade for all J-8D/H/Fs eventually? BTW Is there any good site detailing what information there is on the WP-14? Chinese or English is fine.

No. The J-8D and the J-8B are the ones with the different airframes, although they both look similar. The only tell tale identification is the tip of the tail. In reality, the J-8D airframe is slightly heavier, but is much beefier. It represents the first major design overhaul of the J-8II series. The beefier airframe allows for more payloads, as well as being able to handle higher G-forces. Of course, the air frame life may have been strengthened as a result. The resulting heavier airframe is matched to the WP-13B engine, which is more powerful than the WP-13AII used in the previous model.

The J-8H takes the same J-8D airframe and made the two wing fences both large and equal sized. In the J-8D, one of the wing fences is smaller.

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Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

In terms of certification, what aircraft is certified as what? I know planes are theoretically capable of certain weapons layout but certification is another matter. For example, the J-7G can theoretically carry BVR missiles, but it doesn't. Is the J-8B certified to carry the PL-11? Does the J-8E carry the PL-8? Is the J-8F the only variant of the J-8II that caries the PL-12 or can the J-8H also capable of using and is certified for the PL-12?

J-8B before mod -> PL-5 and PL-8
J-8B after mod -> that plus PL-11

J-8I -> PL-2 and PL-5
J-8E (J-8I after mod) -> plus PL-8

J-8D same as J-8B after mod.
J-8H same as J-8D after mod. No change in armament however.
J-8H after mod -> plus PL-12 same as J-8F

Lets put it in another way.

J-8D before mod = J-8B after mod
J-8H before mod = J-8D after mod
J-8F (current) = J-8H after mod