zubr completed?

I think we should stop using 'mini' or 'smaller-scale' 'ZUBRs'....because YES the Type 71LHD will be operating a cusion craft that can carry vehicles and troops, but that does not mean its a 'mini' ZUBR...in fact such craft would be more related to the LCAC than any ZUBR. There is no such thing as the mini-Zubr. Zubr simply was never designed to operate from LHD platforms (unless as said, there is some 300m+ ship). It is too tall to be fitted in any docking well, as well as too wide and lengthy. It is not as flexible as LCAC, in terms of roll on-roll off, etc.

But Zubr as a short range high speed infantry/tank transport is definitely a yes. Suitable for Taiwan strait, or quick assaults against Matsu and Quemoy islands. Fast enough to probably shake off any artillery/MLRS attacks, and has definitely a higher chance of dodging or fending off a missile attack than any current LSM/LCM.

I'd say one Zubr would have the effectiveness of five PLAN LCMs. If China fielded 12 Zubrs, that would be quite a capability and achievement.

However, I'm not saying that LCMs and LCUs and LSMs be replaced as such. When the real fighting starts after a beachhead is established, and in terms of logistics and lifting of most heavy equipment, it is these old, vulnerable, but rugged workhorses that will carry most of the burden.

Yep...the 071, though they are calling it an LHD, looks a lot like the US San Antonio Class LPD.

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I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.

Even our LHDs can only carry three LCACs. The Wasp is about 850 feet long. So if the PLAN LHD can carry four, it could very well be over 1000 feet long.

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.

Vlad Plasmius said:

I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.

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I'd say, from the picture, that the vessel is really only capable of carrying three. The last one appears to be sticking right at or out the end.

Vlad Plasmius said:

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.

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Now I think you are hitting on the real issue. Those craft are smaller than US LCAC in my opinion.

In addition, even though the lines are roughly similar, and the function would also be similar, I believe the PLAN LPD will in fact be smaller than the US San Antonio class which comes in at 25,000t. I expect the PLAN LPD to be more on the order of 18,000t.

Here's the best pic of a San Antonio I have seen yet, operational, with the RAM launchers in place:

chicket9 said:

I think we should stop using 'mini' or 'smaller-scale' 'ZUBRs'....because YES the Type 71LHD will be operating a cusion craft that can carry vehicles and troops, but that does not mean its a 'mini' ZUBR...in fact such craft would be more related to the LCAC than any ZUBR. There is no such thing as the mini-Zubr. Zubr simply was never designed to operate from LHD platforms (unless as said, there is some 300m+ ship). It is too tall to be fitted in any docking well, as well as too wide and lengthy. It is not as flexible as LCAC, in terms of roll on-roll off, etc.

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Sorry for misunderstanding but when I was talking about smaller scale Zubr I didn’t mean that PLAN will simple develop scale down version of it… I was referring to possibility that PLAN could use Zubr as reference platform for familiarization whit such craft and production of indigenous LCAC platform based on Zubr tech... thats all...

Vlad Plasmius said:

I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.

Even our LHDs can only carry three LCACs. The Wasp is about 850 feet long. So if the PLAN LHD can carry four, it could very well be over 1000 feet long.

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.

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I can’t completely agree…

First of all we don’t even know if this model represents 071LHD… according to Sinodefence it is only proposition by China National Shipbuilding Co.

Secondly we really don’t know what LCAC type landing crafts this ship caries… This could be Chinese Type 724 (carried by Yuting class)… So ship could be even smaller then San Antonio class...

Thirdly I somewhat doubt that new PLAN amphibious platform will have more then 18000t displacement, IMHO type 071 will probably be more similar in size to Singapore Endurance class LST/LPD or Rotterdam class LPD…

I am a bit lost here.

What I have known is China is building a 19000 ton LPD called 071.

Also, there has been a rumor of a LHD or Heli carrier or Amph. Attack Ship (This is the name used in china). I do have a feeling that, for years, this is the project that led many external observors believe that China would only go for a small Heli Carrier first.

And ironnically, after 5 years, most of the rumors showed up, but this Amph. Attack Ship is still hiding somewhere, no real photo evidences at all.

Jeff Head

I'd say, from the picture, that the vessel is really only capable of carrying three. The last one appears to be sticking right at or out the end.

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Doesn't look like that to me. I don't see why thy would put four LCACs in there if it can only carry three.

In addition, even though the lines are roughly similar, and the function would also be similar, I believe the PLAN LPD will in fact be smaller than the US San Antonio class which comes in at 25,000t. I expect the PLAN LPD to be more on the order of 18,000t.

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Unless 15,000 to 20,000 is the full load range, it will either be as big as San Antonio or larger.

isthvan

Secondly we really don’t know what LCAC type landing crafts this ship caries… This could be Chinese Type 724 (carried by Yuting class)… So ship could be even smaller then San Antonio class...

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It's definitely not 724. It would not be much good for any kind of modern amphibious warfare ship. That would give this ship the ability to only deliver 40 troops at any time using all of those.

Thirdly I somewhat doubt that new PLAN amphibious platform will have more then 18000t displacement, IMHO type 071 will probably be more similar in size to Singapore Endurance class LST/LPD or Rotterdam class LPD…

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I don't see why. China certainly would have the ability to develop something larger. Something larger would be more in China's interests.

Vlad Plasmius said:

Doesn't look like that to me. I don't see why thy would put four LCACs in there if it can only carry three. Unless 15,000 to 20,000 is the full load range, it will either be as big as San Antonio or larger.

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Like I said...principally, I believe those craft are smaller than the USN LCAC, and I believe the PLAN LPD will be smaller than the San Antonio. Time will tell...but those are my predictions.

Vlad Plasmius said:

It's definitely not 724. It would not be much good for any kind of modern amphibious warfare ship. That would give this ship the ability to only deliver 40 troops at any time using all of those.

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I used type724 as example… AFAWK this could be Chinese counterpart of Lebed class… My point was that we joust can’t know what type of LCAC this is…

Vlad Plasmius said:

I don't see why. China certainly would have the ability to develop something larger. Something larger would be more in China's interests.

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I joust think that based on previous Chinese amphibious ship development it would be too soon to expect something in that size class… I’m not saying that PLAN can’t build this ship but I have some doubts that they won’t ship of this size; so I’m putting my $0.02 on something comparable to Rotterdam class LPD…

Up until now, I only heard 2 figures on this 071's size: 19000ton by all sorts of sources, and 9000 ton from one Kanwa article.

hopefully sometime in the first half of next year we will see it in the water then we can measure it.

Please check the latest picture of 071 and 054A in the image section posted by tphuang.

071 looks pretty big compared to the 4000ton 054A

zyun8288 said:

Please check the latest picture of 071 and 054A in the image section posted by tphuang.

071 looks pretty big compared to the 4000ton 054A

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here is this picture.


Zyun, the problem is that I'm not convinced the one on the bottom right is 054A. Also, I'd think 054A would be larger than 4000 tonnes. Even 054 is 3900 tonnes.