ZTQ-15 and PRC Light Tanks

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Additional thought.
Looking at the recent events involving India, if a armored engagement took place due to the terrain. The Indians would be using BMP series vehicles as there tank force is either Arjun, T90, or variants of the T72. Far to heavy. BMP series vehicles would be roughly the same protection and firepower of the ZDB.
The Russians themselves faced this limitation when they invaded Afghanistan, although they had T80, T72, and T64, high terrain limited them to T54, T55 And T62 tanks some of which today serve as hand me downs to the ANA.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
OTOH which enemy vehicle would a 105mm gun be effective against that a 100mm gun wouldn't? If high altitude engagements limit the size of the vehicle to essentially IFVs then a 100mm gun would certainly be enough. As for the engine that is a good point, though a redesigned ZBD-04"B" which deleted the amphibious capability altogether may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone in terms of P:W ratio. The ZBD-04A already downgraded its amphib capability in favor of more armor.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As I mentioned already maybe in a different thread, the new light tank is more for Taiwan than India.

Indian honestly doesn’t matter remotely enough to China to warrant a specialist tank, although the Chinese obviously saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone as such a tank will also be useful in Tibet/Northern India.

Also, tanks will play at best a marginal role in any Sino-Indian clash owing to terrain. Artillery and air power would be far more important, and once one side or the other achieves a breakthrough and get past the mountains, the light tank would be fundamentally outclassed by the Indian Army’s heavy MBTs, so realistically, by the time tanks start to really matter in such a conflict, the PLA would need its 96s and 99s, not some light tank. It would be a poor investment to field a new class of tank for such a limited role.

However, the light tank is pretty much tailor made for a Taiwan scenario. Where both it’s firepower and armour are more than adequate against Taiwan’s museum piece M60s. It’s light weight will make it more suitable to the boggy conditions of much of the island, as well as give the PLA far more flexible delivery options compared to the heavier 96s and 99s.

And unlike India, China cares about Taiwan, and so would be willing to spend on a tank tailor made for the area, even if it will only play a small role in any overall campaign.
 

Insignius

Junior Member
Just give the Chinese border troops some ATVs with mounted Sabre-ER NLOS missiles, as well as HJ-12s and that Indian front is basically secured anti-tank wise. If you want to destroy bunkers cheaply, the PF-98 120mm RRs and assorted light-weight wheeled SPGs are more than enough.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
OTOH which enemy vehicle would a 105mm gun be effective against that a 100mm gun wouldn't? If high altitude engagements limit the size of the vehicle to essentially IFVs then a 100mm gun would certainly be enough. As for the engine that is a good point, though a redesigned ZBD-04"B" which deleted the amphibious capability altogether may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone in terms of P:W ratio. The ZBD-04A already downgraded its amphib capability in favor of more armor.
Never fight a fair fight. is Rule #1 You only fight if you know you can win. If it's a battle of IFV vs IFV and both have very similar specs Then it becomes a numbers game. IE He who shoots Lives. This means that the fight is far more dangerous for the infantry in those IFV's. consider the 6 Day war where the Israelites with 105mm Rifled guns took up entrenched positions and laid waste to T55 waves by using long range gunnery,
This is part of the Reason for a Light tank in this scenario It has the added Range and punch and can make up for the Differences. The 105mm Rifled is a high velocity gun that means longer range flatter trajectory. IE The light tank with a 105mm HV rifled can sit back and plunk IFV's with the 100mm LV semiauto outside of their effective range.
Just give the Chinese border troops some ATVs with mounted Sabre-ER NLOS missiles, as well as HJ-12s and that Indian front is basically secured anti-tank wise. If you want to destroy bunkers cheaply, the PF-98 120mm RRs and assorted light-weight wheeled SPGs are more than enough.
People Overestimate ATGMs and they're worth. They have a function and a role sure but they have limitations to, and Tanks can do a lot for infantry and visa versa.

Now Wolf.
The M60 is old but hardly as easy a target as you seem to think. It's old but can still be upgraded. The problem there is it falls into the fight above. 105mm Rifled vs 105mm rifled. the only advantage being the fire control systems with for the moment the newer Tank having the better FCS.
But The Taiwanese are already planning to up gun and upgrade the FCS of there Pattons. When that happens The light tank falls short on armor and range. So if it's New PLA light tank vs M60A3 TT it's almost a fair fight and militaries prefer not to do those, They cost lives. If it was Type 99 even Type 96 in an artillery duel against a M60 Then yeah go for it. the 125mm gun has the longer range and the absolute one hit kill.
 

jobjed

Captain
However, the light tank is pretty much tailor made for a Taiwan scenario. Where both it’s firepower and armour are more than adequate against Taiwan’s museum piece M60s. It’s light weight will make it more suitable to the boggy conditions of much of the island, as well as give the PLA far more flexible delivery options compared to the heavier 96s and 99s.

And unlike India, China cares about Taiwan, and so would be willing to spend on a tank tailor made for the area, even if it will only play a small role in any overall campaign.

Taiwan considered purchasing the Abrams to replace their Pattons but has now decided instead to upgrade their Pattons from 105mm to 120mm, which is still concerning because 120mm is dangerous. They're given on the Abrams purchase for now but there's still a solid possibility that the ROC will get them eventually. I doubt the PLA would've been that short-sighted to tailor an entire AFV program for a theatre whose balance-of-power could shift with a single foreign purchase or a fleet-wide upgrade program. China certainly cares about the Taiwan situation but they usually spend their money on solutions that the enemy cannot counter easily, e.g. mass FAC attacks which, to this day, the USN still finds daunting, AShBMs which are all the rage these days in media headlines, world's fastest-swimming amphibious AFV whose merits are only further accentuated by improving PLAN ship-bombardment capabilities, etc.

It's more likely that the PLA did not target a specific theatre and more just identified a general requirement for a sub-50t tank for use in situations around the country where MBTs mightn't be able to reach in militarily-significant numbers. The Tibetan plateau, Yunnan-Guangxi jungles, and anywhere that might need rapid aerial reinforcements could be potential areas of service. If ever it came to an invasion of the ROC by the PLA, and the ROCA is still using 105mm Pattons then sure, the ZTQ can come along for the ride. However, if the ROC implements fleet-wide 120mm upgrades or purchases the Abrams, which is very possible, the ZTQ has no place in an assault on Taiwan.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
OTOH which enemy vehicle would a 105mm gun be effective against that a 100mm gun wouldn't? If high altitude engagements limit the size of the vehicle to essentially IFVs then a 100mm gun would certainly be enough. As for the engine that is a good point, though a redesigned ZBD-04"B" which deleted the amphibious capability altogether may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone in terms of P:W ratio. The ZBD-04A already downgraded its amphib capability in favor of more armor.

The 100mm gun of the ZBD04A is a low velocity gun, not the same as a tank's higher velocity gun.

From what I can see, the BMP-3, whose 100mm gun the ZBD04A's is based on, has a top muzzle velocity of 355m/s depending on which munition is used:
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I don't know what the model of the gun that ZTQ-15 is using, but based on what I've found, the L7 105mm tank gun used by M1, Centurion, Leopard 1, etc, has a top muzzle velocity of 1475m/s when firing APFSDS
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AFAIK the BMP-3's 100mm cannon can only fire high explosive rounds and ATGMs, no APFSDSs.
 

jobjed

Captain
The 100mm gun of the ZBD04A is a low velocity gun, not the same as a tank's higher velocity gun.

From what I can see, the BMP-3, whose 100mm gun the ZBD04A's is based on, has a top muzzle velocity of 355m/s depending on which munition is used:
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I don't know what the model of the gun that ZTQ-15 is using, but based on what I've found, the L7 105mm tank gun used by M1, Centurion, Leopard 1, etc, has a top muzzle velocity of 1475m/s when firing APFSDS
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AFAIK the BMP-3's 100mm cannon can only fire high explosive rounds and ATGMs, no APFSDSs.

The 105mm on the ZTQ is a lengthened version of the NATO 105mm, over a metre longer than the original. China license-produced the 105mm as the ZPT-83 before modifying it to the lengthened ZPT-94. Presumably, the ZPT-94 or a modified version thereof is mounted on the ZTQ. In the rest of the PLA's tank force, the short 105s are mounted on Type 59IIs and ZTZ-88Bs while the long version is mounted on Type 59Ds and ZTZ-88As.

Also, it's just ZTQ for the time being, no number confirmed. The recent 90th PLA anniversary exhibition confirmed a bunch of designations but, unfortunately, not the ZTQ's. Xinhui from CDF is just guessing.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Taiwan considered purchasing the Abrams to replace their Pattons but has now decided instead to upgrade their Pattons from 105mm to 120mm, which is still concerning because 120mm is dangerous. They're given on the Abrams purchase for now but there's still a solid possibility that the ROC will get them eventually. I doubt the PLA would've been that short-sighted to tailor an entire AFV program for a theatre whose balance-of-power could shift with a single foreign purchase or a fleet-wide upgrade program. China certainly cares about the Taiwan situation but they usually spend their money on solutions that the enemy cannot counter easily, e.g. mass FAC attacks which, to this day, the USN still finds daunting, AShBMs which are all the rage these days in media headlines, world's fastest-swimming amphibious AFV whose merits are only further accentuated by improving PLAN ship-bombardment capabilities, etc.

It's more likely that the PLA did not target a specific theatre and more just identified a general requirement for a sub-50t tank for use in situations around the country where MBTs mightn't be able to reach in militarily-significant numbers. The Tibetan plateau, Yunnan-Guangxi jungles, and anywhere that might need rapid aerial reinforcements could be potential areas of service. If ever it came to an invasion of the ROC by the PLA, and the ROCA is still using 105mm Pattons then sure, the ZTQ can come along for the ride. However, if the ROC implements fleet-wide 120mm upgrades or purchases the Abrams, which is very possible, the ZTQ has no place in an assault on Taiwan.

It wasn’t just because of price that the Abrams deal fell through. Taiwan is wet, hot and have a lot of terrain that heavy MBTs like Abrams would simple bog down in.

The same would go for the PLA’s 99s and 96s.

The PLA would no doubt bring their 96s and 99s in any Taiwan scenario, but a lot of the terrain would simply not support those tanks.

China knows very well the value of mobility and being able to cross territory your opponent could not.

Just think back to the Korean War, where light PLA infantry were able to outflank and cut off retreating American columns that were limited by terrain to the few main roads able to support their armour and transports.

The new light tank is no supposed to be the battering ram that the likes of Abrams and 99s are. What they are supposed to do is allow the PLA to outflank and cut off enemy forces limited by their own weight to the main roads.

Time would be of the essence for China in a Taiwan scenario, and that is precisely what the light tank focuses on. It’s oversized engines are good for speed as well as slopes.

They are intended to race ahead to outflank and cut-off enemy formations so to fundamentally weaken their resolve and fighting ability to set up easy, quick crushing victories for the battering ram of PLA 99s and 96s; they will also be expected to strike rapidly to capture key crossroads, bridges and other natural chock points to both cut-off retreating enemy forces, but also to secure those to allow the PLA heavyweights to use them to press ahead.

These were never supposed to do the same job as heavy MBTs any more than 022s were designed to do the job of 055s.

The fact that they can go toe to toe for Taiwan’s MBTs is a massive bonus, but all it’s other qualities and advantages as listed above does not go away even if Taiwan does manage to scare up some Abrams.

Rather than try to take those on directly, the light tanks would simply outflank any Abrams lines by crossing terrain the Abrams are too heavy for, and cut off their supply lines.

Good luck trying to hold a line against PLA 96s and 99s with no resupply of fuel or ammo and potentially have the new light tanks attack your line from the rear just as the PLA main force hits the front.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
It wasn’t just because of price that the Abrams deal fell through. Taiwan is wet, hot and have a lot of terrain that heavy MBTs like Abrams would simple bog down in.

The same would go for the PLA’s 99s and 96s.

The PLA would no doubt bring their 96s and 99s in any Taiwan scenario, but a lot of the terrain would simply not support those tanks.

China knows very well the value of mobility and being able to cross territory your opponent could not.

Just think back to the Korean War, where light PLA infantry were able to outflank and cut off retreating American columns that were limited by terrain to the few main roads able to support their armour and transports.
The M60 is similar to the weight of the Type 96, so where the Type 96 cannot go, the M60 will not be able to go either. Which then begs the question of what the ZTQ's 105mm gun is being used against if we are talking about going where MBTs cannot go. After all you don't need a high velocity tank gun if you are only expecting to shoot IFVs or unarmored vehicles.
 
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