WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

[Jura The idiot]

Many German generals wrote memoirs after the war not showing their own mistakes but attributing failures to Hitler's mistaken notions. I have read few of these memoirs but have seen references to them in mostly English language books. And if he indeed consciously sacrificed the 6th army to save 800 000 other soldiers he was right to do so and was wrongly accused of incompetence by generals who lacked the whole picture at the time and refused to acknowledge their mistake after the war but continued to blame Hitler.

delft I responded in
WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ww...cussion-pics-videos.t6728/page-69#post-409578
(if you want, we can go on but not in this thread)

 

[delft]

well, my point was the adventure of 1942 push south-east (Fall Blau) could've ended much worse for the Germans (EDIT and their allies) than "just" loosing at Stalingrad, but I mean they were lucky not to loose big way then, but nobody "consciously sacrificed" Army Group "B"

***
I read von Manstein's "Lost Victories" in the dorm, which means a quarter of century ago

I never read Von Manstein but he is one of the generals blamed by some of the books I read of claiming credit for all his successes and blaming all his failures on Adolf. I also read that for Fall Zitadelle Hitler gave his generals a free hand despite his misgivings and that its outcome taught him to never do that again.

 

[Jura The idiot]

I never read Von Manstein but he is one of the generals blamed by some of the books I read of claiming credit for all his successes and blaming all his failures on Adolf. I also read that for Fall Zitadelle Hitler gave his generals a free hand despite his misgivings and that its outcome taught him to never do that again.

it's well known von Manstein didn't want to quit at Kursk though

 

[delft]

it's well known von Manstein didn't want to quit at Kursk though

More fool he. The Russians had huge reserves that were not yet committed and the Northern pincer was defeated, the tank battle in the South was lost. Were would he have found the reserves to continue?

 

[Jura The idiot]

More fool he.

LOL!

The Russians had huge reserves that were not yet committed and the Northern pincer was defeated, the tank battle in the South was lost. Were would he have found the reserves to continue?

delft, at that point in war, the Germans repeatedly have successfully conducted campaigns which were "doomed to fail" ... and at Kursk, they were winning ON A TACTICAL LEVEL when it was called off

 

[delft]

LOL!


delft, at that point in war, the Germans repeatedly have successfully conducted campaigns which were "doomed to fail" ... and at Kursk, they were winning ON A TACTICAL LEVEL when it was called off

Their disabled tanks in the South were lost, the disabled tanks of the Russians were on their way to be repaired. Model didn't make progress anymore and two days later there would be a Russian offensive in his rear. No doubt they were tactically superior at some points but operationally they were loosing.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Their disabled tanks in the South were lost, the disabled tanks of the Russians were on their way to be repaired. Model didn't make progress anymore and two days later there would be a Russian offensive in his rear. No doubt they were tactically superior at some points but operationally they were loosing.

well, they were inflicting significant damage upon the enemy (the factor could be five) ... if this wasn't a compelling argument (because the Soviet Union couldn't be defeated this way anyway or something), then yes, it would be time to quit (both at Kursk and here
EDIT common having finally deployed these:

when else they should push it?

by the way I posted about a theory the Germans should've played to win WW2:

... having the France defeated in June 1940, concentrate on Africa (not the UK) and get to the Middle East, and only then attack the USSR ...

 

[delft]

I'm saying this because several years ago I saw an interesting article (forgot which was it was though) which presented a plan how the Germans could've won the WW2 (OK, according to the author which was, as far as I remember, having the France defeated in June 1940, concentrate on Africa (not the UK) and get to the Middle East, and only then attack the USSR (one of the army groups then would've been coming from Iran, so I can't resist to add: direction Stalingrad

UK had immense interest in Middle East - Suez Canal, important for the connection with India, the oil from Iraq and Iran - so the effort of UK against Germany wouldn't have any less, possibly even more, than happened in history.

 

[Jura The idiot]

UK had immense interest in Middle East - Suez Canal, important for the connection with India, the oil from Iraq and Iran - so the effort of UK against Germany wouldn't have any less, possibly even more, than happened in history.

plus I guess on the German side it would had required the territories (either allied or conquered) of Spain; Vichy France in Northern Africa; Turkey to secure places like Gibraltar; Malta; Cyprus first ... had this happened, though, I can't see how the British could stop Operation-Barbarossa-sized Wehrmacht in Egypt

 

[delft]

plus I guess on the German side it would had required the territories (either allied or conquered) of Spain; Vichy France in Northern Africa; Turkey to secure places like Gibraltar; Malta; Cyprus first ... had this happened, though, I can't see how the British could stop Operation-Barbarossa-sized Wehrmacht in Egypt

Perhaps Turkey would have cooperated and the Vichy authorities in Syria would have cooperated, there were the Italian owned Greek islands. But the British wouldn't have been driven out of Cyprus as happened on Crete. And how would a Barbarossa-sized Wehrmacht in the area be supplied? Besides the purpose is the oil of Iraq and Iran. The forces needed would be larger and more complex than needed in the nearly one dimensional North African coastal theatre. With UK itself not attacked and Germany blockaded no German effort far away in the Middle East would make any sense. The insurrection in Iraq was spectacular but would only have been successful with that mythical German force already in Syria.