WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

[Jeff Head]

Jeff,

Was it superior American carrier design or tactics (probably both) that reduced the American carrier loss so significantly after October 1942?

By 1943 the US was pumping out the Essex class fleet carriers. The first was CV-9, USS Essex, which was commissioned in December 1942. Six were commissioned in 1943, six more in 1944, and five more in 1945 before the end of the war. The rest of the class of 24 were commissioned after the war.

These carriers displaced about 32,000 tons for the short hull variant, and 37,000 tons for the longer hull. They carried between 90, to over 100 aircraft.

In addition, US Battle damage tactics were better. US combat construction and design were very strong too. Not a single Essex class carrier was lost...though several were heavily damaged, particularly by Kamikaze attack.

The US training of its pilots was another VERY key factor. The US did not keep its experienced fliers on the front line for ever. They would do a particular amount of time and then be rotated back to either command, or, in particular, to train new pilots. So arriving US pilots had a LOT of training and experience which they already benefited from.

Thee Japanese tended to leave their pilots in place until the were either injured or died...and the "brain trust" was lost..

So, all of that figured in.

The US was also building escort carriers and "Jeep" carriers (which were conversions of merchant ships) in even larger numbers. The escort carriers were better built, but the "Jeep" carriers were not built to the same standards and several of those were lost.

All of this figured in. By the middle to end of 1043, the US manufacturing and production capability were simply dwarfing everything Japan, Germany, and Italy could do combined...byt several times. This was also a key consideration. Even if the US suffered losses, they were replacing them much faster than they could be destroyed...and in the case of the large fleet carriers...none of them were destroyed.

Those Essex carriers were the main stay of US naval power projection through much of the Cold War. They were converted into angled deck carriers, with strengthened deck and elevators, and new sensors, so they handled the jet aircraft of the 1950s and 1960s. The first Super carriers (the Forrestal class) would not be commissioned until 1955) so the Essex class (and the follow on Midway class of 3 carriers which were, in essence, improved Essex carriers), carried the full weight until that time...but even thereafter because of their numbers.

The last Essex class carrier was decommissioned in November 1991, the USS Lexington, after 48 years of service (she was commissioned in Feb 1943 and fought in many major campaigns of World War II). She operated as a training carrier from about 1970 on which accounted for her long life.

All other Essex class carriers were decommissioned by about 1976 by which time the three Midway class, the four Forrestal class, the four Kitty Hawk class, the USS Enterprise, and the USS Nimitz had all been commissioned.

 

[Lezt]

Well, you just have to look at the situation before WW1...

Germany, a newly established superpower in the rise, Britain and France both in relative decline. German ambitions grew and wanted the same pies Britain and France were having, and the other two basically said "no". And hence hostilities grew that led eventually to WW1.

The fact is that Germany at late 1930s was economically very weak. If Hitler had not started the war, their economy would have probably crashed badly anyway, and Germany would not have become any stronger for quite a long time. All of the advanced stuff probably won't exist due to the lack of demand and necessity.

I never liked that narrative, for WW1 and WW2; Jackie Fisher said something along the lines of "every country want peace but peace on their own terms"

it is not true that Germany was hellbent on war, for both wars - nor was Germany a "new" power on the block, they had won the last war with France - 1871 - and by a wide margin. Germany also didn't start WW1, its treaty obligation with Austria did. The Serbian goverment involved assassination of the Austria-Hungarian crown prince was an act of war, the political missteps and the desire for war by all parties, found Austria- declaring war on Serbia, in which Russia declare war on Austria-Hungary; which in turn saw Germany declaring war on Russia - and France -> as France have an alliance with Russia; and as Germany has to cross the low countries to make war with France, some of which are under the protection of Britain, there you have WW1.

Thus the narrative is more accurate of a resurgent France with Russia trying to contain and coerce Germany and the British joined in for the war prize.

WW2 is about pride, German pride. Economically, every country is weak after the great crash of the 1930s and the competition between nations is relative. Infact, Hitler's rise to power is due to his ability to give jobs to people; by far, Germany had the strongest European economy in 1940; it is more likely that France or Britain would decline first than Germany, and an argument could be made that had Hitler waited, he would have had much better odds especially since his investments in Spain, China and elsewhere would bear much more fruit.

 

[Miragedriver]

DB engine change to a ME-109E in a workshop campaign, BULGARIA 1941.

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[Miragedriver]

Pfc. Richard Larock, of 'E' Company, 119th Infantry Regiment, 30th US Infantry Division, relaxes after a day of fighting by playing piano in a wrecked German beer hall. 8th of October 1944.

He was killed in action two days later near Aachen on the 10th of October 1944, aged 31.

Richard Larock from Helena, Montana, left behind a wife and three young children.
He is buried at the Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery and Memorial in Hombourg, Belgium.

(Source - US Army Signal Corps - 195022)


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[Miragedriver]

No.4 Company, 1st.Welsh Guards, in action near Cagny, Caen, Normandy during 'Operation Goodwood'. 19th of July 1944.

The Company Commander, Maj J. D. A. Syrett, is seen
indicating a mortar target to Sgt Vessey. Gdsm Kitchen is in the foreground and Gdsm Fenwick is the Bren gunner. Major Syrett was killed a few days later.

'Operation Goodwood' was the name given to the Allies attempt to capture the city of Caen in Normandy. 'Operation Goodwood' was started in July 1944 and by the time the operation was declared over the city of Caen was in ruins. Ironically, the people who had come to rescue Caen from German occupation were also the same people who caused far more damage to the ancient city than the German occupiers had done. However, by the end of 'Operation Goodwood' the city was freed of German control and for the civilians who lived in Caen, they had their city back. It may have been extensively damaged, but it was under French control one again.

1st Btn Welsh Guards diary note for the 19th July.
"We linked up with 3 Squadron of 2nd Armoured Recce Battalion WELSH GUARDS under Major CONSETT who stayed with us for most of the rest of the day.
Change of plan now became the order of the day and the Commanding Officer’s carefully conceived Operation Order immediately became inoperative.
We first took up a sort of pivot position behind a railway and it was here that Prince of Wales Company, to Major MILLER’s great joy took our first Prisoners: one Czech and the other from DUISBURG and both only too ready to talk.
The Battalion moved on from there to its original debussing point above CAGNY, and Prince of Wales and No, 2 Companies straight away put in an attack on the little town which it was considered might still contain enemy elements: it did and both Companies made a nice bag of Prisoners most of them eager to give themselves up after the morning’s heavy bombing.

The remainder of the Battalion then moved forward to the pivot area on foot.
By this time it was about 2300 hours and the transport then came up amid a galaxy of tracer, parachute flares and all the rest of it.

However, nothing was hit and after a certain amount of difficulty all the transport reached their correct Companies, and the Battalion spent most of the rest of the night digging in interspersed with diving for cover whenever ‘moaning minnie’ made her all too frequent appearance."


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[Miragedriver]

Here are some images of some of the surviving German Panzers in Europe:

This German Panzerkampfwagen IV tank Ausführung G can be found at the Deutsches Panzermuseum in the small military town of Munster, Germany.

In 1940 the best and most heavily armored tank of the German army, the Panzer IV tank, only accounted for 10% of the tanks available to the commanders of the Panzer Divisions during the battle of France. It was an oversight, which could have potentially been disastrous.

Throughout its long career, the Panzer IV tank was to prove a remarkably versatile design. There are those historians that say, if the Germans had stuck with the Panzer IV tank and built large numbers of them, they would have done a lot better rather than messing around with the complicated and difficult to produce Tiger and Panther tanks.

The reason is that this tank was superb all-round design. It was in service when war broke out in 1939 and it was still an effective front line tank at the end of World War II.

This German Panzer I Ausf. A tank can be found at the German Tank Museum – Deutsches Panzermuseum in Munster, Germany.

This German German Panzer II tank PzKpfw II Ausf C Sd.Kfz. 121 can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

This German Panzer III Tank Ausf. M can be found at the German Tank Museum – Deutsches Panzermuseum in Munster, Germany


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[Miragedriver]

Continuing

This German Panzer III Ausf H tank panzerkampfwagen 3 Sd.Kfz.141 can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

This German Panzer III tank can be seen at the Auto and Technik Museum in Sinsheim, Germany. It has been restored in the German Afrika Korps desert camouflage of 1941.

This German Panzer IV Ausf H tank panzerkampfwagen 4 Sd.Kfz.161/2 can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

This Panther Ausf A Medium Tank Sd.Kfz.171 can be found at the German Tank Museum – Deutsches Panzermuseum in Munster, Germany.

This Panzer V Panther Tank Ausf. A Medium Sd.Kfz.171 can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

The Panther was not as thickly armored, nor as heavily armed, as tanks such as the Tiger but was probably a much more balanced design. It was one of the fastest German tanks, highly maneuverable and equipped with an accurate gun. Its worst defect was a propensity to catch fire if the engine backfired.
The Model G was the last main production variant of Panther and our exhibit was one of a group built, under British control, at the end of the war. These were tested in Britain and Germany and may have contributed to the design of the British Centurion.

This Panther was found partly completed on the production lines after the German surrender and was finished by REME troops. It has features characteristic of the Ausf G, including increased armor, a one-piece side plate and hinged hatches in the hull.

The camouflage scheme is similar to that used on Panthers leaving the factory in the last months of the war. A basic undercoat of red with other colors rapidly applied. It was seen on Panthers of 5th Battalion, 25th Panzer Grenadier Division on the Eastern Front in February 1945.


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[Miragedriver]

Some more panzers

This German Tiger I Ausf. E Heavy Tank panzerkampfwagen VI can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

This German Tiger Tank I Ausf. E Heavy Tank panzerkampfwagen VI can be found at the Deutsches Panzermuseum in Munster, Germany.

This tank was the first Tiger to be captured intact by British or U.S. forces when it was knocked out in the final month of the Tunisian campaign. It arrived in Tunisia some time between 22nd March and 16th April 1943 and was involved in an action with 48 RTR near Medjez-el-Bab on 21 April 1943. It knocked out two Churchill’s but a shot from another’s six pounder stuck the gun mantle, and although unable to penetrate the tank’s thick armor, jammed the turret and wounded the commander. Damage is still visible on the mantle, superstructure front plate and turret lifting boss. The crew abandoned the tank and it was recovered the next day and refurbished using parts from other vehicles. The Tiger was later displayed in Tunis and inspected there by King George VI and Winston Churchill. In October 1943 it was sent to the School of Tank Technology for evaluation and in November 1944 displayed on Horse Guards Parade.

The trend to design bigger and more powerful tanks is universal but the results are not always impressive. The requirement for a 45 ton tank was issued in May 1941 and taken up by Dr. Porsche on one hand and by Henschel & Co. on the other. Trials of prototypes in 1942 reveald that the Henschel design was the more practical and production began in July 1942. By this time specifications had changed and the tank would weigh in the region of 57 tones, and mount an 88mm KwK 36 gun behind a maximum 110mm of armor on the turret front.
It was a formidable combination. The gun was very effective and extremely accurate while the armor was proof against most contemporary anti-tank guns at anything but the closest range. Yet it was not all progress. the Tiger was so wide it had to be narrowed down to travel by rail and in bad conditions the overlapping wheels trapped mud and ice sufficient to bring the big tank to a halt. The engine had a nasty habit of catching fire while the gearbox, if subjected to great stress, was liable to break down. If this happened the repair crew had to lift the turret off to get at it.

For all that the Tiger was regarded as formidable. It saw action in Russia, Tunisia, Sicily, Italy and north west Europe (although production was limited to just 1,354 tanks) and it was feared by all Allied tank crews, which gave the Panzer forces a considerable psychological advantage. Even so it would probably be fair to say that more Tigers were lost through mechanical failure than combat action.

This German Königstiger Royaltiger tank, panzerkampfwagn VI Ausf. B Tiger II, can be found at the German Tank Museum in the military town of Munster, Germany.

This German King Tiger II Ausf. B Heavy Tank can be found at the French Tank Museum in Saumur in the Loire Valley.

Known variously as the Tiger II or Konigstiger (Royal Tiger) but invariably referred to as the King Tiger this massive tank first appeared in 1944. It was designed to carry the new and bigger 88mm KwK L/71 gun and to take advantage of the trend towards sloped armor. It first saw action against British forces in Normandy in June 1944 but suffered from various mechanical failures typical of new and untried tanks. Even so it was a formidable opponent, well armed and heavily armored and arguably well ahead of its time. Even so production never even reached 500 machines and they were outnumbered on such a vast scale by American and Russian production that their impact on events was minimal. Our exhibit was in service with Heeres Waffenprufungamt (Army Ordnance Testing Department), Sennelager, Germany.

This Konigstiger is the second vehicle of the trials series of three and has the Porsche/Krupp designed turret which was replaced after the first fifty production models by the improved Henschel design. It was accepted for trials at Sennelager in January 1944 and was not intended to issue to the troops. It was discovered at Sennelager at the end of the war and sent to the School of Tank Technology.


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[Miragedriver]

A flying BF-109

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[Miragedriver]

A US tank crew posing for the camera from a foxhole beneath their M-10 tank destroyer, north of Marigny, Normandy, 26 July 1944.

The men belong to the 703rd Tank Destroyer Battalion attached to Combat Command B of the 3rd Armored Division.

The unit landed in France on 1 July, and saw its first action near Hautes Vents a fortnight later. This photo was taken in the intervening week, before the unit participated in Operation Cobra - Lieutenant General Omar Bradley's push to break through the German defensive lines that were pinning down Allied forces in the Normandy bocage countryside.

(Photographer: Roger Hamilton, US. Army Signal Corp)


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