WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

[Jeff Head]

We have numerous discussions that crop up all the time on the forum about World War II, what happened during that war, and strategies that were involved.

Unfortunatly, those discussions generally take the threads that they occur in far off topic.

So, this thread is for discussing thoe matters.

But please, no conspiracy theories, no "abject what ifs", and no historical/culutral finger pointing, revenge, political, etc. talk. Keep it on the historical record about the actual combat and campagns, and on the strategies that were actually used and how they influenced the outcomes. The other type discussions will be deleted with warnings, and then, if not halted, will result in suspensions.

Other than that...that is what this thread is for. I will be moving some posts over here from the Aircraft Carrier II thread.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Except the carrier Akagi has her island on the wrong side.

Sorry, can't resist. This is the carrier thread, after all.

well she was one of the exceptions the other being the Hiryū. every carrier ever built has its island in virtually the same location. This traces back to the first British carrier, that during early formulation suffered from issues related to need of a funnel and navigation bridge. It was realized that a Island was needed, and some one pointed out that those early early carrier planes had a habit. Of yawing to the left. So it was decided to use this habit to place the Island in a location where the aircrafts would naturally in a incident move away from..

 

[kwaigonegin]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

On Pearl Harbor..

The very best motion picture I've ever seen on Pearl Harbor is ;

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This film was a joint effort by US and Japanese filmmakers. It is extremely factual IMO.

I agree.. now the 2001 movie Pearl Harbor with Ben Affleck was not only a fiction but even the events themselves were quite made up. About the only thing 'true' about the entire movie is basically the IJN attacked PH on Dec 7. Then again it was directed by Michael Bay so I guess it goes w/o saying.
Luckily Kate Beckinsale is in it to offer some relief(eye candy) otherwise it would've been an unwatchable movie LOL

 

[chuck731]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

well she was one of the exceptions the other being the Hiryū. every carrier ever built has its island in virtually the same location. This traces back to the first British carrier, that during early formulation suffered from issues related to need of a funnel and navigation bridge. It was realized that a Island was needed, and some one pointed out that those early early carrier planes had a habit. Of yawing to the left. So it was decided to use this habit to place the Island in a location where the aircrafts would naturally in a incident move away from..

Yeah, but Hollywood put her island on the normal, starboard side.

 

[kwaigonegin]

This thread reminds me of a funny but true story that I overheard many years ago. I was in Branson MO and we went to watch this show called the Shoji Tabuchi show. It's basically a variety show ala Las Vegas style. Not too bad and was actually quite enjoyable.

Anyway while we were seating down I saw this older gentleman uttering some words to his wife etc. He said (and I'll forever remember this).... " Great! just what I need.. watching a jap play the fiddle on Pearl Harbor Day!". I honestly didn't think of Pearl Harbor Day until he said it. The wife was like Milton, Hush! this is a great show!

In the back of my mind I was thinking .. well Sir I thank you for your service however the fact that you would fork out $50 to 'watch a jap play the fiddle' means all is good in this world.
I also remember him clapping on and off throughout the show LOL.. so all is really good with this world!

As a side note if you ever find yourself in Branson check out the bathroom in Shoji's Theater. It is out of this world!! I know it's a weird thing but I guarantee you it rivals or maybe even better the most luxurious penthouse hotel bathroom in the world!!

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Well if you want to knit pick, the markings on the Japanese planes are wrong, the movie only shows aircraft markings for the Akagi, 5 IJN carriers were there. The sequence where Hasley is watching a exercise has him on the wrong ship. You can clearly see the number 14 on the island the flag was Enterprise who was number 6 and because they leased the Yorktown to use for live action shots you can clearly see a angled deck.

 

[delft]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Uh, no. The carriers were at sea on dec 7 by accident, not because the USN was forewarned.

I read in a book about flattops, some forty years ago, that the crews were told on Dec. 5 that war with Japan was imminent.

Further reading in this thread suggests strongly that the book was wrong.
I especially likes the remarks by chuck on the Nomohan/ Khalkin Gol "incident". I do wonder how aware were the governments in Berlin, London and Paris of this war at the time.

 

[SampanViking]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

That's pure conspiracy theory, delft. So let's talk specifically about the three Pacific Fleet carriers:

On 7 December 1941, the three Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga (CV-3).

1st, Enterprise, CV-6: On November 28, 1941, Admiral Kimmel sent Enterprise and her TF-8, which consisted of, the heavy cruisers Northampton (CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. December 7, 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu.

2nd Lexington, CV-2: On December 5, 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, and was ordered to sail from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. On December 7, 1941, Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers were 500 miles southeast of Midway.

3rd, Saratoga, CV-3: The Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego late in the morning of December 7, 1941. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor.

Finally, the other US carriers: Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; the new Hornet (CV-8), was commissioned in late October 1941, and had yet to carry out her shakedown cruise. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941. Langley, CV-1, which had been converted into a sea plane tender in 1939 and thus became AV-3, was anchored in the Philippines on December 7, 1941.

So, they were all out on missions or completing overhaul that had already been planned. The best the Japanese could have done was to catch one, the Lexington in harbor on December 4th, or the Enterprise in harbor probably by December 8th.

No conspiracy, and really, not even an "accident" in the strictest sense of the word, because they were doing exactly what had been planned and they had been ordered to do. For Yamamoto, because his plan did not account for these types of orders/exercises for the carriers in early December, he simply missed them.

So Yamamoto was simply being over optimistic in hoping to find all or at least many of the Capital Ships in Harbour all at the same time.

It sounds then that the correct course of action for the Japanese; post the first wave of attacks in which the main Harbour and its facilities were disabled, would have been to have searched the surrounding waters for Isolated Carrier detachments and to attack while they were not at full combat readiness.
I know, easy to say in hindsight, but surely a senior naval officer should have had more than an inkling of foresight?

 

[chuck731]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

So Yamamoto was simply being over optimistic in hoping to find all or at least many of the Capital Ships in Harbour all at the same time.

It sounds then that the correct course of action for the Japanese; post the first wave of attacks in which the main Harbour and its facilities were disabled, would have been to have searched the surrounding waters for Isolated Carrier detachments and to attack while they were not at full combat readiness.
I know, easy to say in hindsight, but surely a senior naval officer should have had more than an inkling of foresight?

The Kito butai (the Japanese fast carrier strike force) didn't have the fuel to stay near Hawaii to search and destroy carrier task forces whose whereabouts Nagumo knew absolutely nothing about. Those carriers could have been on the way to west coast, or to wake island. The search area would have been enormous and the chance of finding anything without a priori knowledge of where the targets are would be near zero.

The operation of the Pearl Harbor strike was very finely tuned without much margine or redundancy, both to preserve secrecy, and to ensure resources are available to support the main Japanese thrust to south east Asia which was occurring at the same time. The logistic tanker support for the Pearl Harbor strike was limited.

Because Pearl Harbor got so much press and movie play it seems now it was the main focus of Japanese strategy in 1941. That was not the case. The main focus of Japanese naval and overall strategy was the thrust south to seize hongkong, French Indochina, Malaya, Singapore, and Dutch East Indies. The Pearl Harbor attack was actually just a flank screening operation for the main Japanese naval effort.

Yamamoto knew it was a gamble. But he was an inveterate gambler in both habit and attitude.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

I read in a book about flattops, some forty years ago, that the crews were told on Dec. 5 that war with Japan was imminent.

Further reading in this thread suggests strongly that the book was wrong.
I especially likes the remarks by chuck on the Nomohan/ Khalkin Gol "incident". I do wonder how aware were the governments in Berlin, London and Paris of this war at the time.

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I'll leave this here. Make your own assumptions.