Ws13a?

PiSigma said:

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

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Well, I think they prefer the J-10 over the FC-1. The cost per unit of the FC-1 is from 14million-20million, while the J-10 is 20-25million per unit. There is not a significant difference in cost between the two aircraft.

FriedRiceNSpice, cool it!!! One more outburst like that and I'll have to report you!

The FC-1 is not useless at all to the Chinese. It was China that first called on Pakistan to go and build the FC-1 project and guess what, both nations have learned much from this project. The FC-1 is one of the few fighters I have seen that has DSI intakes. Also, if the Chinese thought the project is useless, then I don't think the PLAAF would continue the project. Why is it that the prototypes are continuing to improve if the Chinese see no benefit to it?

because it's mainly for Pakistans AF. All of the changes are being pushed by Pakistan.

Chinese will use it to export to other countries, but whether it will be inducted is questionable.

And you are wrong if you think Pakistan can manufacture a turbofan. That is total bull. The metallurgical industrial capability is simply not existing in Pakistan, and a TOT will not build such an industrial capability over night. It took China years and years to succeed.

Airframe? yes. Avionics? yes. radar? perhaps. But no way can Pakistan who has not even made a turbojet engine make a turbofan.

And as TPHuang has quoted, Pakistan will not be getting the WS13 TOT. Only airframe, avionics.

skyhawk2005 said:

because it's mainly for Pakistans AF. All of the changes are being pushed by Pakistan.

Chinese will use it to export to other countries, but whether it will be inducted is questionable.

And you are wrong if you think Pakistan can manufacture a turbofan. That is total bull. The metallurgical industrial capability is simply not existing in Pakistan, and a TOT will not build such an industrial capability over night. It took China years and years to succeed.

Airframe? yes. Avionics? yes. radar? perhaps. But no way can Pakistan who has not even made a turbojet engine make a turbofan.

And as TPHuang has quoted, Pakistan will not be getting the WS13 TOT. Only airframe, avionics.

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so they can simply import the ws-13as. im sure pakistan is advanced enough to maintain and repair them, correct?

MIGleader said:

so they can simply import the ws-13as. im sure pakistan is advanced enough to maintain and repair them, correct?

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That's a interesting though. Maintaining shouldn't be hard to teach. As for repair, I guess one question is whether or not China can repair the AL-31F engines. From the constant resupply of AL-31F (I bet the Russians make more money off China on the engines than anything else), it looks like China does not have the capability to repair them. If Pakistan isn't given a ToT on WS-13A, then I would have a hard time believe that they would have the ability to do so (remember, the project was begun without a guarantee that WS-13A would be available. Although the WS-A project does look much more promissing with its recent successes).

Actually, I do have one big question for the Pakistani members. It was mentionned that the first 50 JF-17s will be using Chinese avionics and radar. Is that first 50 PAF JF-17s or first 50 JF-17s overall? Also, what's the status on Grifo-S7? I just hear all this speculative numbers on that radar, but has the radar itself reached its own specs?

PiSigma said:

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

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The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.

The "low-end" fighter for China is it's J10, and the "high-end" fighter is it's J11s. Trying to replace J7s with FC1s is like replacing obsolete planes with another obsolete plane. It's a waste of time.

And these improvements to the JF17 will drive its price up, reducing the main argument for the JF17 in the first place: a cheap alternative to the costlier J10.

PLAAF doesn't want the FC1 for a very good reason. Instead, they should mass produce J11s and J10s. Using domestic subsystems like WS10A will lower cost so that it will be cheap.

skyhawk2005 said:

The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.

The "low-end" fighter for China is it's J10, and the "high-end" fighter is it's J11s. Trying to replace J7s with FC1s is like replacing obsolete planes with another obsolete plane. It's a waste of time.

And these improvements to the JF17 will drive its price up, reducing the main argument for the JF17 in the first place: a cheap alternative to the costlier J10.

PLAAF doesn't want the FC1 for a very good reason. Instead, they should mass produce J11s and J10s. Using domestic subsystems like WS10A will lower cost so that it will be cheap.

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can it be? am i actually agreeing with skyhawk?
to add to your point, the plaaf is modernizing for the future! a third generation aircraft will have no combat value in the plaaf, ezpecially when planes such as j-11b, j-10c, and j-xx come out. the fc-1 would merely suck up money from production of these planes.

as for interception, china has 240 j-8s, which have been upgraded nicely, and still have soem potential.

This is according to some pretty respectable posters on war-sky. dddaaa1976 has to be one of the biggest expert on Chinese military engines:

同意dddaaa1976的说法，WS13基本就是中推核心机+RD33的低压段（修正），其有几个衍生型号，其中最值得关注的就是推比9的，这很可能就是共军中四的过渡动力（土共的海军就指望着这玩意料~~~），推比8的中推是可以发展到推比9/10的。按照贵州的官方说法是在08年完成WS13的设计定型。 �丠,I"笮
垦O阤�娝d
关于推比10的中推，前段时间报导过了，核心机点火成功，624搞的。即便按照现在所谓的“超常规发展â€的思路，即便是有毛子的P2000打的底子，个人推测，能在2015年实现型号设计定型就很不错了，但就目前的进度看，比推比10的大推的进度要快点。

Basically, WS13 is expected to be certified in 2008. We can use WS13 to develop engines that are of T/W ratio of 9 and 10.

As for T/W ratio of 10 engine projects, in the medium size category (so, like RD-33 and GE-404), it will probably finish in 2015 at the earliest. The heavy engine (like AL-31) will probably finish later.

skyhawk2005 said:

The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.

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I'd agree that the PLAAF should concentrate on fewer, better aircraft types, but it is possible to upgrade the JF-17 for extended range. You could enlarge the plane (i.e. Mirage-4000) or add conformal fuel tanks like the F-16I. I think the Israeli model stores 450 gallons each?



As for payload, I think there's a trend for increased payload and capabiltiy with later revisions of the same aircraft. For an example, compare any F-16C/D to the earlier F-16A block 5. The later F-16 models had structural reinforcements on the wings to allow bigger and heavier payload, along with engine upgrades for greater power.

adeptitus said:

I'd agree that the PLAAF should concentrate on fewer, better aircraft types, but it is possible to upgrade the JF-17 for extended range. You could enlarge the plane (i.e. Mirage-4000) or add conformal fuel tanks like the F-16I. I think the Israeli model stores 450 gallons each?

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As for payload, I think there's a trend for increased payload and capabiltiy with later revisions of the same aircraft. For an example, compare any F-16C/D to the earlier F-16A block 5. The later F-16 models had structural reinforcements on the wings to allow bigger and heavier payload, along with engine upgrades for greater power.

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And why should the Chinese do that when they have the longer ranged heavier J10?

The JF17 is mainly a pakistani project (although designed and manufactured by China), and an export vehicle for China.

Chinese do not want nor need the JF17/FC1.