World News Thread & Breaking News!!

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Equation

Lieutenant General
I agree that the video is an insult, but in a civilized culture, we usually don't answer insults with violence.

Like jackliu said, anyone could make those videos. The alternative would be to enact legislations that forbid such videos, but then we quickly fall into the slippery slope of "blasphemy" laws.

True, but at the same time people's level of tolerance and free speech are different where they grew up in. At what level is it acceptable for everyone and who gets to call the shots? Even with all the technologies in today's world we're still struggling with ignorance and hatred every where.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I'll be more worried about false flag operations against US, any hostile nations can bribe some starving Americans film makers to make a low budget movie about Muhammad, and watch the inevitable result.

Yeah if you can find an aspiring desperate filmmaker that just wants to make rent. Meaning you don't need to hire anyone and can do it yourself. No filmmaker I know would make a movie like it's being reported how this movie was made. And I know plenty of bad filmmakers and from experience, the worse you are the more pretentious meaning this guy couldn't hire anyone if he look for one for what he could do easily himself. Which was my point. A bad filmmaker makes a crappy movie and it causes an international incident? There are always people like the Pastor Terry Jones burning the Koran that will see this and get ideas. Look at all the copycat gun shootings that take place and this one you can actually hide behind freedom of speech unlike a person who wants to shoot up a school or theater.

On another note it's amazing to me watching the news that some people think if they can explain freedom of speech to these people rioting overseas over this "movie," somehow they're going to understand and not riot. These are fanatics and they only see their religion being attacked. They don't care about freedom of speech. Some say Al Qaeda and and other extremists are orchestrating these attacks. If so are they that naive to believe explaining the concept of freedom of speech will calm them down? It's just like the arguments over abortion rights. You can scream a woman's right to choose all you want. Does that get through anyone against it over religious grounds? So what makes them think they can sway fanatics rioting over in the Middle East over what freedom of speech means? What's irresponsible of the media is perpetuating this notion that all they need is freedom of speech explained to them.

What's realistic is this is probably going to be the new norm. Anyone can make this bad of a movie and you can put it on youtube and the internet for all to see. Youtube has already come out saying this movie's clips postings do not violate any of their rules so they won't censor it.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
Agreed, this will be tough for US to deal with, do they implement some kind of self censorship to avoid further incidents, but doing so will violate almost everything that they preaching preaching for, for the last two decades, free media, no censorship.

On the other hand if they don't, this kind of thing will keep happening, more attack against US target, worse US public opinion in the middle. This is just too easily exploited by anyone that can afford a digital camera.

Did someone mention a rock and a hard place?
 

delft

Brigadier
I agree that the video is an insult, but in a civilized culture, we usually don't answer insults with violence.

Like jackliu said, anyone could make those videos. The alternative would be to enact legislations that forbid such videos, but then we quickly fall into the slippery slope of "blasphemy" laws.
They live in a violent place. Their country has just been destroyed. It might partly have been their own work, but violence has now been established there until some government is established able to suppress it.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I agree that the video is an insult, but in a civilized culture, we usually don't answer insults with violence.

I would not be so quick to climb on our 'civilized' high horse and turn our noses up at the behavior of these very offended people. Not all that long ago in the west's civilized society, people were being murdered in the streets in front of their families over something as trivial as a football game, in China and Korea, protests over the insult Japanese politicians do to the victims of Japanese war crimes by visiting the Yasukuni Shrine often spill over into violence.

No one has a right to judge others for being upset or offended by something, the only real difference between those people rioting in the streets and storming American and other Western missions across the muslim world is that for Americans and Europeans, if their population feel strongly enough about something, their governments can and will send in the military to do the deed, whereas those in the Muslim world are usually citizens to weak and/or corrupt governments who either cannot, or will not act in accordance to the demands on their peoples, so their peoples take matters into their own hands.

This is not a case of Muslims choosing to take offense from an innocent cultural misunderstanding, this is a cut and dried case of someone deliberately making something calculated to cause maximum offense to the Muslim world. If you don't want to be stung, don't go poking hornet nests, and as far as I am concerned, all the death and destruction caused in the aftermath of this film is as much the fault of the despicable cowards who made the film as those who went onto the streets, and I think this blind obsession with 'freedom of expression' is one of the most nonsensical and damaging principles the west has.

All the emphasis is on protecting the cretins who say and do obscene things because they get a perverted kick out of seeing other people being upset and offended by their actions. Why is it people only care about the rights of those who seek to cause offense? What about the rights of those they target to live their lives free from being victimized and having the things they care about being desecrated by others?

The biggest problem with western society is that it has become obsessed with 'rights' while totally neglecting responsibilities. As any half decent parent would try to teach their children, rights and responsibilities are inseparable, and too many rights without any responsibilities is a perfect recipe for excess and abuse.
 
I would not be so quick to climb on our 'civilized' high horse and turn our noses up at the behavior of these very offended people. Not all that long ago in the west's civilized society, people were being murdered in the streets in front of their families over something as trivial as a football game, in China and Korea, protests over the insult Japanese politicians do to the victims of Japanese war crimes by visiting the Yasukuni Shrine often spill over into violence.

No one has a right to judge others for being upset or offended by something, the only real difference between those people rioting in the streets and storming American and other Western missions across the muslim world is that for Americans and Europeans, if their population feel strongly enough about something, their governments can and will send in the military to do the deed, whereas those in the Muslim world are usually citizens to weak and/or corrupt governments who either cannot, or will not act in accordance to the demands on their peoples, so their peoples take matters into their own hands.

This is not a case of Muslims choosing to take offense from an innocent cultural misunderstanding, this is a cut and dried case of someone deliberately making something calculated to cause maximum offense to the Muslim world. If you don't want to be stung, don't go poking hornet nests, and as far as I am concerned, all the death and destruction caused in the aftermath of this film is as much the fault of the despicable cowards who made the film as those who went onto the streets, and I think this blind obsession with 'freedom of expression' is one of the most nonsensical and damaging principles the west has.

All the emphasis is on protecting the cretins who say and do obscene things because they get a perverted kick out of seeing other people being upset and offended by their actions. Why is it people only care about the rights of those who seek to cause offense? What about the rights of those they target to live their lives free from being victimized and having the things they care about being desecrated by others?

The biggest problem with western society is that it has become obsessed with 'rights' while totally neglecting responsibilities. As any half decent parent would try to teach their children, rights and responsibilities are inseparable, and too many rights without any responsibilities is a perfect recipe for excess and abuse.

If for every good post, you get a dollar, you'll be a billionaire just from my donation alone. And for this post I'd love to give you a Kuwaiti bullion.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I would not be so quick to climb on our 'civilized' high horse and turn our noses up at the behavior of these very offended people. Not all that long ago in the west's civilized society, people were being murdered in the streets in front of their families over something as trivial as a football game, in China and Korea, protests over the insult Japanese politicians do to the victims of Japanese war crimes by visiting the Yasukuni Shrine often spill over into violence.

No one has a right to judge others for being upset or offended by something, the only real difference between those people rioting in the streets and storming American and other Western missions across the muslim world is that for Americans and Europeans, if their population feel strongly enough about something, their governments can and will send in the military to do the deed, whereas those in the Muslim world are usually citizens to weak and/or corrupt governments who either cannot, or will not act in accordance to the demands on their peoples, so their peoples take matters into their own hands.

It's not a question of climbing on a high horse. It is a question of noting how easily these people can be manipulated. Any nobody can threaten to burn the Koran, and whip these guys into a killing frenzy. A simple cartoon causes widespread destruction in their *own* society.

Note that aside from attacking some foreign embassies, all the destruction wreaked by these mobs is upon their own people.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It's not a question of climbing on a high horse. It is a question of noting how easily these people can be manipulated. Any nobody can threaten to burn the Koran, and whip these guys into a killing frenzy. A simple cartoon causes widespread destruction in their *own* society.

Well there are a couple of obvious issues with that line of reasoning.

Firstly, why on earth would anyone feel like the absolutely need to burn copies of the Koran or make cartoons about Mohammed? These are not innocent acts, they are deliberate choices people make, and there is absolutely no good reason for anyone to do either of those things.

The only justification anyone has thus far presented to defend these blatantly offensive acts is 'I want to do it because I can', and that is a pathetically selfish and moronically irresponsible reason as far as I am concerned, and it seems to be the exact same kind of perverted illogic that drive sadistic youths to thrown large stones onto cars from bridges.

It is both ironic and incredible sad that writers and journalists would often boast that the pen is mightier than the sword, yet be completely immune to the very real and tragic consequences that their words cause in the world world. The written word is a tool as powerful and deadly as any machinery or weapon if abused by those with the right gifts and skills and can do just as much harm. Why on earth are we not making people who use and abuse this powerful tool, often openly as an offensive weapon, as liable for the consequences of their actions as any other misused tool? The fact that the written word is abstract and intangible should be no limitation, computer viruses and complex financial crimes are also abstract and intangible and no society seem to have any qualms about punishing people who abuse those.

As you have pointed out, it is no mystery how the Muslim world would react to such acts of provocation, and the cause and effect chain should be as plain and obvious as someone pushing a large heavy object off of a tall building over a public street.

If someone pushed a large heavy object like a safe or grand piano off of a tall building over a crowded street and killed someone, there would be no question about his liability if that heavy object killed someone. As far as I am concerned, it should take no more intelligence to predict that making such an openly and intentionally offensive film about Islam would cause widespread violence and destruction and likely loss of life. Whoever made that film knew full well the likely consequences of making that film and went on regardless, and as such, I think in any logical world, he should share equally in the responsibility of the consequences.

The other problem with your original statement is the implied judgement that no other society would revert to such extremely violent protests over an insult.

As I have already pointed out in my last post, there are plenty of issues that will drive normally rational and reasonable people to violence all over the world.

Anyone suggesting the Japanese occupation of Korea and China was a good thing could expect to be publicly lynched if he was in China or Korea; merely denying that the Holocaust took place is a criminal offence in the western world, so one does not need much imagination to deduce what would almost certainly happen to anyone who made a film mocking the victims of the Holocaust and praising Hitler - there would be massed outrage, probably protests and demonstrations, widespread and unequivocal condemnation by the western world, all of the entire world's law enforcement agencies would spare no effort to find whoever made such a film and bring him to justice and no country would dream of offering him sanctuary on the grounds of free speech.

Contrast that to the western world's reaction to the Islam mocking film and it should be pretty obvious why one people might react more forcefully than the other to such a grave offence - for the western public, much of their anger and frustration would be tempered by the knowledge that everyone is united in denouncing the offender and that the world order is tasked with tracking him down and bringing him to justice. OTOH, for the Muslim world, much of the western media's reporting of the film have been studiously neutral with a distinct lack of condemnation for what the makers of the film did. How do you think your average Muslim is supposed to interpret that? In addition, have there even been a hint that any authorities are looking into the matter or that the people who made the film will be censored in any way, shape or form for what they have done?

It's easier to say, 'don't do anything rash, and let the proper authorities deal with it' when the proper authorities are taking the matter seriously and looking in it and pretty damn hard to do the same when the proper authorities don't seem to give the slightest crap about it.

Look back at all the demonstrations that have turned violent in the past in western countries and societies and what is the most common share factor? The perception that the authorities are not taking the issue seriously enough and that the perpetrators might escape justice. The LA riots, various G20 protests, the recent London riots and many more.

I dare say there would be a great deal less anti-American and anti-western violence if western leaders and media had offered up the kind of condemnation as you would normally expect for something so despicable and deliverable offensive, and if such an offensive film had been made mocking something that would offend the western world, like the Holocaust.

In my view, the demonstrations are as much about the nonchalance the west is showing to this as much as the fact that the film was made in America.

that aside from attacking some foreign embassies, all the destruction wreaked by these mobs is upon their own people.

When the mob take over, all sense of logic is lost, that is why governments across the world are so scared by the prospect of demonstrations turning violent and do all they can to stop that from happening. The fact that a mob become a raging, uncontrollable rampaging monster like the hulk doesn't mean much, a mob will do that no matter what nationality, race or religion it's participants are.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Well there are a couple of obvious issues with that line of reasoning.

Firstly, why on earth would anyone feel like the absolutely need to burn copies of the Koran or make cartoons about Mohammed? These are not innocent acts, they are deliberate choices people make, and there is absolutely no good reason for anyone to do either of those things.

The only justification anyone has thus far presented to defend these blatantly offensive acts is 'I want to do it because I can', and that is a pathetically selfish and moronically irresponsible reason as far as I am concerned, and it seems to be the exact same kind of perverted illogic that drive sadistic youths to thrown large stones onto cars from bridges.

It is both ironic and incredible sad that writers and journalists would often boast that the pen is mightier than the sword, yet be completely immune to the very real and tragic consequences that their words cause in the world world. The written word is a tool as powerful and deadly as any machinery or weapon if abused by those with the right gifts and skills and can do just as much harm. Why on earth are we not making people who use and abuse this powerful tool, often openly as an offensive weapon, as liable for the consequences of their actions as any other misused tool? The fact that the written word is abstract and intangible should be no limitation, computer viruses and complex financial crimes are also abstract and intangible and no society seem to have any qualms about punishing people who abuse those.

As you have pointed out, it is no mystery how the Muslim world would react to such acts of provocation, and the cause and effect chain should be as plain and obvious as someone pushing a large heavy object off of a tall building over a public street.

If someone pushed a large heavy object like a safe or grand piano off of a tall building over a crowded street and killed someone, there would be no question about his liability if that heavy object killed someone. As far as I am concerned, it should take no more intelligence to predict that making such an openly and intentionally offensive film about Islam would cause widespread violence and destruction and likely loss of life. Whoever made that film knew full well the likely consequences of making that film and went on regardless, and as such, I think in any logical world, he should share equally in the responsibility of the consequences.

The other problem with your original statement is the implied judgement that no other society would revert to such extremely violent protests over an insult.

As I have already pointed out in my last post, there are plenty of issues that will drive normally rational and reasonable people to violence all over the world.

Anyone suggesting the Japanese occupation of Korea and China was a good thing could expect to be publicly lynched if he was in China or Korea; merely denying that the Holocaust took place is a criminal offence in the western world, so one does not need much imagination to deduce what would almost certainly happen to anyone who made a film mocking the victims of the Holocaust and praising Hitler - there would be massed outrage, probably protests and demonstrations, widespread and unequivocal condemnation by the western world, all of the entire world's law enforcement agencies would spare no effort to find whoever made such a film and bring him to justice and no country would dream of offering him sanctuary on the grounds of free speech.

Contrast that to the western world's reaction to the Islam mocking film and it should be pretty obvious why one people might react more forcefully than the other to such a grave offence - for the western public, much of their anger and frustration would be tempered by the knowledge that everyone is united in denouncing the offender and that the world order is tasked with tracking him down and bringing him to justice. OTOH, for the Muslim world, much of the western media's reporting of the film have been studiously neutral with a distinct lack of condemnation for what the makers of the film did. How do you think your average Muslim is supposed to interpret that? In addition, have there even been a hint that any authorities are looking into the matter or that the people who made the film will be censored in any way, shape or form for what they have done?

It's easier to say, 'don't do anything rash, and let the proper authorities deal with it' when the proper authorities are taking the matter seriously and looking in it and pretty damn hard to do the same when the proper authorities don't seem to give the slightest crap about it.

Look back at all the demonstrations that have turned violent in the past in western countries and societies and what is the most common share factor? The perception that the authorities are not taking the issue seriously enough and that the perpetrators might escape justice. The LA riots, various G20 protests, the recent London riots and many more.

I dare say there would be a great deal less anti-American and anti-western violence if western leaders and media had offered up the kind of condemnation as you would normally expect for something so despicable and deliverable offensive, and if such an offensive film had been made mocking something that would offend the western world, like the Holocaust.

In my view, the demonstrations are as much about the nonchalance the west is showing to this as much as the fact that the film was made in America.


When the mob take over, all sense of logic is lost, that is why governments across the world are so scared by the prospect of demonstrations turning violent and do all they can to stop that from happening. The fact that a mob become a raging, uncontrollable rampaging monster like the hulk doesn't mean much, a mob will do that no matter what nationality, race or religion it's participants are.

Anyone caught lynching someone in China is going to be arrested. As for the "nonchalance" of the west, I don't think anything the western media can say or do will deter these riots. These are not people who read google news every day. These are people who do what their religious leaders tell them to do, believe what their religious leaders tell them to believe. And if those religious leaders are al-Qaeda sympathizers who would love nothing more than creating more anarchy, then the consequences are a foregone conclusion.

It is interesting to note that Iran has not seen any violence yet:
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