Why was Yue Fei killed?

Those are different. We can understand the reasons for those executions. Liu Bang was fearful of Han Xin's abilities, and Han Xin was only killed *after* securing Liu's throne. Yuan was killed because the Ming Emperor thought he was colluding with the enemy.

However, there is no evidence that suggests Song Gaozong mistrusted Yue Fei's loyalty. There seems to be no logical reason for Gaozong to stop Yue Fei in the eve of what would have been a great success for his own empire.

Maybe the fact that it took 12 gold plaques to order him back might have sealed the final decision from the emperor.

solarz said:

Those are different. We can understand the reasons for those executions. Liu Bang was fearful of Han Xin's abilities, and Han Xin was only killed *after* securing Liu's throne. Yuan was killed because the Ming Emperor thought he was colluding with the enemy.

However, there is no evidence that suggests Song Gaozong mistrusted Yue Fei's loyalty. There seems to be no logical reason for Gaozong to stop Yue Fei in the eve of what would have been a great success for his own empire.

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I would respectfully disagree.

Song Gaozong, sent 12 gold plaques to gain an audience (recall) Yui Fei - in any pusdo-conficious-military culture, that is a huge sign of disrespect.

Think about it, had Yuifei retaken kaifeng, they might have released the previous Song Emperor Qinzong held in captivity; hence start a civil war in the Song. So do Gaozong, see Yuifei's campaign as on the eve of a great success for his empire or does he see the impeding chaos of what if Yuifei won? I am not justifying Yuifei's execution, it was stupid and amoral; but Yuifei did pose a significant threat to the throne; if viewed from the military power stand point, and the "moral" standpoint of getting the previous emperor back.

Han Xin was killed during a period of revolt. Liubang was away campaigning during his execution, the battle had not been won.

Yuan, was fighting against the Manchus, which with full retrospect were the ones who ended the Ming a short time later. Had Yuan, been allowed to continue his campaign against the Jin, as had Yuifei been allowed to continue the fight against the Jin, history could have been very different.

Lezt said:

I would respectfully disagree.

Song Gaozong, sent 12 gold plaques to gain an audience (recall) Yui Fei - in any pusdo-conficious-military culture, that is a huge sign of disrespect.

Think about it, had Yuifei retaken kaifeng, they might have released the previous Song Emperor Qinzong held in captivity; hence start a civil war in the Song. So do Gaozong, see Yuifei's campaign as on the eve of a great success for his empire or does he see the impeding chaos of what if Yuifei won? I am not justifying Yuifei's execution, it was stupid and amoral; but Yuifei did pose a significant threat to the throne; if viewed from the military power stand point, and the "moral" standpoint of getting the previous emperor back.

Han Xin was killed during a period of revolt. Liubang was away campaigning during his execution, the battle had not been won.

Yuan, was fighting against the Manchus, which with full retrospect were the ones who ended the Ming a short time later. Had Yuan, been allowed to continue his campaign against the Jin, as had Yuifei been allowed to continue the fight against the Jin, history could have been very different.

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Yes, but my point was those emperors gave proper reasons for the execution. The reason sounded so real that people wanted to eat Yuan chonghuan's flesh. Yet, Gaozong never gave any reason for killing Yue Fei. The only thing that was remotely close to an excuse was "mo xu you". That, my friend, has never happened in Chinese history. Compounded with the fact that Yue Fei was middle of his mission, that became extremely strange.

Yes, Gaozong had every reason to feel threatened by Yue Fei. He had every reason to kill Yue Fei. That's not the point. The point was why did Gaozong not frame him? It should be almost like a second nature for any emperor to find an excuse to kill someone. Even some dumb ones knew how to do that. Even if he didn't know how to do it, Qin Hui surely would remind him. As talented a person as Qin Hui, he would not have missed this for the world. Yet, he did not give any excuse... Must be strange.

That was the mystery.

The emperor who gave out poison wines to the generals of Liang Mountains after they wiped out other rebels was the grandfather of the emperor we are discussing.

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I think that only happened in the novel, there is no historical record of what happened to any of those generals. The actual historical record ends with their capture by the Song dynasty, no record at all of what happened to them beyond that. I think the part where they serve the Song dynasty is fictional.

vesicles said:

Yet, Gaozong never gave any reason for killing Yue Fei. The only thing that was remotely close to an excuse was "mo xu you". That, my friend, has never happened in Chinese history. Compounded with the fact that Yue Fei was middle of his mission, that became extremely strange.

Yes, Gaozong had every reason to feel threatened by Yue Fei. He had every reason to kill Yue Fei. That's not the point. The point was why did Gaozong not frame him? It should be almost like a second nature for any emperor to find an excuse to kill someone. Even some dumb ones knew how to do that. Even if he didn't know how to do it, Qin Hui surely would remind him. As talented a person as Qin Hui, he would not have missed this for the world. Yet, he did not give any excuse... Must be strange.

That was the mystery.

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There was a official reason for killin Yue and that was treason.

The exact meaning of phrase "mo xu you" was debated among history scholars. The classic translation for "mo xu you" was "don't have to exist", so Qinhui told Hanshizhong that Yue's treason "don't have to exist" in order for him to kill Yue. This version is generally discredited. The majority explanation now is that "mo xu you" was actually phrased as a sort of conformational question(as Chinese is a tonal language, that detail was not passed down in written record). If that's true, the closest english translation of the phrase would amount to something like "Surely Yue's treason is real, isn't it?!" So Qinhui was not denying Yue's committed treason, he was strongly asserting it. So in fact, Yue Fei was framed treason and killed for it, of course with the silent approval of Gaozhong.

As to why GaoZhong's so insistant in killing Yue, there are many reasons. The most important one is that Yue had become the arch enemy to his policy of making peace with Jin. Gaozhong, for reasons that needs a full paper to explain, never believed Southern Song would be able to completely conquer Jin. Therefore, in his eyes, Yue's ambition would only lead his country into a never-ending cycle of agression and retaliation. Gaozhong can't openly debate with Yue since Yue has the moral highground not to mention his reputation among military. But with Yue around, Gaozhong could never quench the hawkish faction within the government(he can't kill government officials because of a law passed down by the first Emperor of Song). So, Gaozhong has to kill Yue to successfully make peace with Jin. Finially, Gaozhong used the ultmate excuse to do that:treason. (btw, soon after Gaozhong was dead, Yue's case was reverted and Qinhui's whole family were executed, for a tool of Gaozhong, history had judged him harshly)

ahadicow said:

There was a official reason for killin Yue and that was treason.

The exact meaning of phrase "mo xu you" was debated among history scholars. The classic translation for "mo xu you" was "don't have to exist", so Qinhui told Hanshizhong that Yue's treason "don't have to exist" in order for him to kill Yue. This version is generally discredited. The majority explanation now is that "mo xu you" was actually phrased as a sort of conformational question(as Chinese is a tonal language, that detail was not passed down in written record). If that's true, the closest english translation of the phrase would amount to something like "Surely Yue's treason is real, isn't it?!" So Qinhui was not denying Yue's committed treason, he was strongly asserting it. So in fact, Yue Fei was framed treason and killed for it, of course with the silent approval of Gaozhong.

As to why GaoZhong's so insistant in killing Yue, there are many reasons. The most important one is that Yue had become the arch enemy to his policy of making peace with Jin. Gaozhong, for reasons that needs a full paper to explain, never believed Southern Song would be able to completely conquer Jin. Therefore, in his eyes, Yue's ambition would only lead his country into a never-ending cycle of agression and retaliation. Gaozhong can't openly debate with Yue since Yue has the moral highground not to mention his reputation among military. But with Yue around, Gaozhong could never quench the hawkish faction within the government(he can't kill government officials because of a law passed down by the first Emperor of Song). So, Gaozhong has to kill Yue to successfully make peace with Jin. Finially, Gaozhong used the ultmate excuse to do that:treason. (btw, soon after Gaozhong was dead, Yue's case was reverted and Qinhui's whole family were executed, for a tool of Gaozhong, history had judged him harshly)

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A good reasoning. I would like to hear more of your thoughts on why Gaozhong was so keen to make peace with Jin that he was willing to kill his best general, in the middle of a campaign, when Song was winning all their battles?

I think that is the most mystifying part of this enigma.

solarz said:

A good reasoning. I would like to hear more of your thoughts on why Gaozhong was so keen to make peace with Jin that he was willing to kill his best general, in the middle of a campaign, when Song was winning all their battles?

I think that is the most mystifying part of this enigma.

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Yep, exactly. The mystery is China was winning and winning big. When Yue was called back, most of what was Song China and was taken over by Jin was already recovered by Yue. Yue was, at the time, stationed at the original Song-Jin border and was about to start an invasion of Jin. Gao Zong did not need to ask for a truce with Jin and he certainly did not have to kill his best general and give up half of the land that was supposed to his to begin with and was again in his hands back to Jin. No one would do such thing.

Another point in the center of all this mystery is the phrase "mo xu you". This is totally and entirely and unambiguously against the notion of an "official reason". Why? Well, if Gao Zong believed that treason was a good enough excuse to kill Yue, why didn't he and Qin Hui simply say it to the public and portray Yue as a traitor? That would have been so easily done. Yue at the time commanded overwhelmingly majority of the forces of Song and his army had the nick name of "Yue's family army". this name alone would be enough to frame him. Yet, as evil and as smart as Qin Hui was, he never even attempted to frame Yue.

Historically, so many famous commanding generals were persecuted because of their supposed treason against the empire. They were treated this way because their fame and their power threatened the emperor, exactly the same reason that people think Yue was killed. To show their wisdom and just and to justify the killing, the emperors normally would stop at nothing to paint their targets as guilty and evil as possible. Yet, Gao Zong did none of that. Even the evil Qin Hui did not even make an attempt to explain himself. Keep in mind that they were at the height of their power. They could frame Yue of whatever wrongdoing they wanted. Yet again, they did not even make an attempt to do that.

Additionally, emperors were usually extremely protective of traditions. What their ancestors had done MUST be upheld with utmost respect. Yet, Gao Zong's son almost immediately overturned ALL of Yue's supposed "wrongdoing" and gave Yue all kinds of titles that he could possibly give. An 180 deg turn of his father's decision. That was almost unheard of.

Strange strange strange...

I'm reading Song Gaozong's biography again:



And it occurs to me that he's experienced years of running from the Jin. Is it possible that he was so traumatized by those experiences that he became absolutely convinced of the Jin's invincibility, and refused to even see the victories won by Yue Fei?

Perhaps where everyone else saw a real hope of reclaiming Song territory, Gaozong, because of his PTSD, was convinced of the inevitable failure of the war.

solarz said:

I'm reading Song Gaozong's biography again:

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And it occurs to me that he's experienced years of running from the Jin. Is it possible that he was so traumatized by those experiences that he became absolutely convinced of the Jin's invincibility, and refused to even see the victories won by Yue Fei?

Perhaps where everyone else saw a real hope of reclaiming Song territory, Gaozong, because of his PTSD, was convinced of the inevitable failure of the war.

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Well, for an ordinary person of today, he might think like that. However, as a member of the royal family who had been taught that they were the descendants of heaven and they were the living gods and dragons, it would be pretty difficult for him to think he couldn't beat Jin. For a person like GAO Zong, his PTSD would be something like " vowing to kill every Jin". Plus, he could have lived A peaceful life when he went to Jin's capital with his father and grandfather who were captured, like Liu Chan of the 3-kingdoms. Yet, he escaped without knowing for sure what his future would be like while staying means peace and quiet (he became the godson of one of the most powerful princes of Jin). Yet, he escaped knowing he would be caught and killed. It means he's strong and determined. All that suffering on the road would only make him stronger and more determined and even more eager to avenge.