Why didn't late Qing produce any good generals?

vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
stardave said:
So one must ask the question, why didn't the general never receive the support he needed form the central government, even if it was the right thing to do. I think it is because of conflict of interests, when the top leadership is in bed with the foreign class... and in the case of America, our top leadership is in bed with Wall street. (off topic I know)
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Interesting question. It depends on what you believe.

First the legend. When Qing dynasty was 1st established, the founder, Nurhachi unified Manchuria by destroying all fellow tribes. One of the tribes he destroyed was headed by one of his childhood friends. At the time when he sacked the capital city, his childhood friend refused to surrender and burned himself along with his entire immediate family. He hated Nurhachi so much that he swore that even if there was a single woman left in his tribe, she would seek to destroy what Nurhachi created. Then fast-forward 250 years to the late Qing. The young emperor, Xianfeng, fell in love with this beautiful girl in his palace and wanted to name her one of his wives. His officials opposed his decision adamantly because she was a descendant of Nurhachi's childhood friend, which we discussed above. As the legend says, she might have the potential to destroy the great Qing dynasty. The emperor laughed at the notion that a little girl might have the power to destroy a dynasty. So she became one of his wives. She then grew and grew into the infamous Empress Cixi. She was a highly intelligent person as she managed to destroy everyone in her way to power. Yet, it seemed that, once she came to power, every decision she made was harmful to the dynasty. So the legend says her intention was to destroy the Qing dynasty to begin with since Nurhachi, the founder of the Qing dynasty, destroyed her ancestors.

What might have actually happened. The Qing leadership became so corrupted, their personal greed outweighed anything related to the nation. This, in fact, has happened many many times in history. Corrupted officials might take the bribes from the Westerners and did their bidding. The leader who was so removed from the his/her people and the reality made delusional decisions. This also happened many many times in history. Look how Rome fell and what the Louis XVI was doing in his time on the throne. It's not difficult to imagine that these rulers were simply too incapable of ruling a nation.
 
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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
vesicles said:
Interesting question. It depends on what you believe.

First the legend. When Qing dynasty was 1st established, the founder, Nurhachi unified Manchuria by destroying all fellow tribes. One of the tribes he destroyed was headed by one of his childhood friends. At the time when he sacked the capital city, his childhood friend refused to surrender and burned himself along with his entire immediate family. He hated Nurhachi so much that he swore that even if there was a single woman left in his tribe, she would seek to destroy what Nurhachi created. Then fast-forward 250 years to the late Qing. The young emperor, Xianfeng, fell in love with this beautiful girl in his palace and wanted to name her one of his wives. His officials opposed his decision adamantly because she was a descendant of Nurhachi's childhood friend, which we discussed above. As the legend says, she might have the potential to destroy the great Qing dynasty. The emperor laughed at the notion that a little girl might have the power to destroy a dynasty. So she became one of his wives. She then grew and grew into the infamous Empress Cixi. She was a highly intelligent person as she managed to destroy everyone in her way to power. Yet, it seemed that, once she came to power, every decision she made was harmful to the dynasty. So the legend says her intention was to destroy the Qing dynasty to begin with since Nurhachi, the founder of the Qing dynasty, destroyed her ancestors.

What might have actually happened. The Qing leadership became so corrupted, their personal greed outweighed anything related to the nation. This, in fact, has happened many many times in history. Corrupted officials might take the bribes from the Westerners and did their bidding. The leader who was so removed from the his/her people and the reality made delusional decisions. This also happened many many times in history. Look how Rome fell and what the Louis XVI was doing in his time on the throne. It's not difficult to imagine that these rulers were simply too incapable of ruling a nation.
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Well, the legend certainly fits the template of other legends in Chinese history: when a dynasty/kingdom falls, find a woman to blame.

Yes, Cixi was a conservative who clung to her power at the expense of the rest of the country, but her two predecessors would not have done things any different.

The deep corruption of late-Qing started with Qian Long and He Shen. He Shen was a favorite minister of Qian Long, and he was so corrupt, and so adept at corruption, that he amassed a fortune worth more than 15 years of the entire tax revenue of the empire! Even though He Shen was executed in the end, the culture of corruption he created remained, directly influencing events of 100 years later.

It's really a very interesting piece of Chinese history. Of course, I'm no real historian, so my information may well be mixed with legends. :)
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
solarz said:
Well, the legend certainly fits the template of other legends in Chinese history: when a dynasty/kingdom falls, find a woman to blame.

Yes, Cixi was a conservative who clung to her power at the expense of the rest of the country, but her two predecessors would not have done things any different.

The deep corruption of late-Qing started with Qian Long and He Shen. He Shen was a favorite minister of Qian Long, and he was so corrupt, and so adept at corruption, that he amassed a fortune worth more than 15 years of the entire tax revenue of the empire! Even though He Shen was executed in the end, the culture of corruption he created remained, directly influencing events of 100 years later.

It's really a very interesting piece of Chinese history. Of course, I'm no real historian, so my information may well be mixed with legends. :)
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Yep. I am always fascinated with the legends. And it is true that Chinese like to blame women for the fall of anything. Thus the phrase "she has the look that would sack a city and destroy a kingdom."

Virtually all dynasties end because of corruption. Qin had Zhao Gao, Han had the ten Changshi, Song had Zhang bangchang and Qin Hui and Ming had Wei Zhongxian. Like the famous saying, all empire falls from within.
 
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stardave

Junior Member
Interesting, but I don't think Cixi was "in" on it from the beginning, she was probably just doing what she needed to do to maintain her personal power, if that means at the expense of the nation then so be it. It was kinda like when Mao launched the cultural revolution to get back in power, even though he probably know that will only benefit himself, but not much for the nation.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
vesicles said:
Yep. I am always fascinated with the legends. And it is true that Chinese like to blame women for the fall of anything. Thus the phrase "she has the look that would sack a city and destroy a kingdom."

Virtually all dynasties end because of corruption. Qin had Zhao Gao, Han had the ten Changshi, Song had Zhang bangchang and Qin Hui and Ming had Wei Zhongxian. Like the famous saying, all empire falls from within.
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Not just women. Any individuals who lack the male part gets blamed. Eunuchs get the blame almost 100% of the time when a dynasty falls.
 
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stardave

Junior Member
siegecrossbow said:
Not just women. Any individuals who lack the male part gets blamed. Eunuchs get the blame almost 100% of the time when a dynasty falls.
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Is that have to do with discrimination against woman in the old times? Or did they mostly deserve the blame for it?
 
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no_name

Colonel
Well, Eunuch and women are the people who are closest to the emperor and likely influences more. But when you are already being influenced by others around you then it means you are already corrupted from within.

The fact that emperors can do no wrong up till the moment he is overthrown makes it all the more worst.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of an emperor. Everything under the sun is yours. You have an honest official who lectures to you all the time about the need for hard work and good governance and you find him annoying. On the other hand you have a corrupt official who encourages you to be extravagant and indulge in your senses.

Say one day the corrupt official frames the honest one for something he didn't do. Even if you know about the back deals, wouldn't you just pretend you know nothing and punish the good official. You are not going to worry about the bad one because you know what he has been doing and you can always bring the charge on him when you want to get rid of him.

What I am trying to say is - when you have absolute power, you tend to not see things in right or wrong, in the traditional moral sense anymore. Because you own everything and can have the final say on what to do with it/them. Officials are not going to be value more because they are more righteous or loyal, everyone is use as pieces of convenience. It takes an emperor of iron will and extreme self control to avoid falling into this mentality.

And that is why you don't often get good emperors.
 
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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
siegecrossbow said:
Not just women. Any individuals who lack the male part gets blamed. Eunuchs get the blame almost 100% of the time when a dynasty falls.
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There's far more women blamed than eunuchs, though. The only eunuch I can think of would be the Ming eunuchs, but even then, people usually attribute the death of Ming to Chen Yuan Yuan, heh.

---------- Post added at 01:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 AM ----------
no_name said:
Well, Eunuch and women are the people who are closest to the emperor and likely influences more. But when you are already being influenced by others around you then it means you are already corrupted from within.

The fact that emperors can do no wrong up till the moment he is overthrown makes it all the more worst.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of an emperor. Everything under the sun is yours. You have an honest official who lectures to you all the time about the need for hard work and good governance and you find him annoying. On the other hand you have a corrupt official who encourages you to be extravagant and indulge in your senses.

Say one day the corrupt official frames the honest one for something he didn't do. Even if you know about the back deals, wouldn't you just pretend you know nothing and punish the good official. You are not going to worry about the bad one because you know what he has been doing and you can always bring the charge on him when you want to get rid of him.

What I am trying to say is - when you have absolute power, you tend to not see things in right or wrong, in the traditional moral sense anymore. Because you own everything and can have the final say on what to do with it/them. Officials are not going to be value more because they are more righteous or loyal, everyone is use as pieces of convenience. It takes an emperor of iron will and extreme self control to avoid falling into this mentality.

And that is why you don't often get good emperors.
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Well, usually the founding emperors are good rulers, but their descendants get worse with every generation. It's not just absolute power, it's also obligation and repression. Think about it, emperors are designated. Even if you had no interest whatsoever in ruling a nation, you *still* have the job dumped on you. You can't even refuse the job, as whoever takes it would likely kill you, just to be sure.

So you delegate. Get some underling to do the job for you. Of course, you still have no interest in the job, and spend your days with your wives, who happen to be some of the hottest women in your empire. So you have absolutely no idea whether your underling is doing a good job or not, aside from taking him at his word.

Then there's also the fact that when you were the prince-heir, you had to follow every rule, and in the imperial palace, there are 20 rules for every action you take. You had to act like the perfect son to your father, or you risked losing your heir status, and if you lose one of your brothers became emperor instead, the first thing he would most likely do is kill you. So as long as your dad the current emperor lived, you had to live this incredibly repressed life, with the constant fear of displeasing your father. So is it really such a surprise that once you get to call the shots, you get a little overboard? Especially against that Minister who keeps lecturing you like your father used to do?
 
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Lion

Senior Member
Not that I am discrimanated against women in power. Even modern times like CCP, jiang Qing was more or less the sole responsible of most of the culture revolutional havoc created that almost ruined PRC.
 
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