Who are the Taliban?

D

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FuManChu, the problem is that the Taliban aren't the true enemy of the West.

They're the enemy of the Afghani people, because they're only interested in power and using fear to get it back. Nato countries created this current situation by helping the Northern Alliance kick them out. The least we could do is follow through until the Afghanis can sort themselves out.

The Taliban just want their country back and right now, support for the Taliban is growing daily. Eventually, the entire country will revolt (including the major cities).

1. It isn't their country. They don't own it, nor do they have a mandate to run it.
2. There is no real evidence to show that Taleban support is growing "daily" in any meaningful manner. Does anyone know what their current strength is, what their recruitment is like, etc? No. It's just speculation.

Today Iraqi tribal chiefs said that they were forming a 20,000 strong local force to take on Al-Q and its allies in the Suuni triangle. This is in stark contrast to reports that the Iraqi insurgancy has been "growing daily", reports that have been made for ages. Although nothing like this has happened in Afghanistan, I have seen nothing to suggest that the majority of the population wants to do anything other than get on with their lives.

3. The country will not revolt, because they support the new democratic government. The only way the Taleban will regain control is if Nato countries chicken-out and refuse to finish what they started.

Not fighting Al Qaeda means that Al Qaeda is being allowed to give a huge breathing space and THAT right there means the West is losing the war on terror.

Why does fighting Al-Q mean we have to leave the Afghanis to be put back under the Taleban boot? Al-Q doesn't have a country we can invade - sending troops elsewhere won't stop them.
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I sort of agree with Fu Manchu, I don't see much evidence that the Taliban's support is growing, just that they are pushing back against increased NATO pressure. Secondly, most of Afghanistan is under the control of local warlords who have been in command of mujihadeen units since the Russian invasion. The west is run by Ismail Khan, the center by the government and the Hazaras, and the North by an Uzbeck fellow, or an assortment of them. Of course, all of these local rulers (with the exception of the central government) rule through deputies who either fought with them, proclaimed allegiance to them or have been bribed into joining the scheme. For example, Ismail Khan runs Herat directly, but his authority extends all the way up into the central mountians because the local militia commanders/village headmen owe their allegance to him. Karzai technically runs the whole country because the main reigonal warlords give their alliegance to him, however loosely. So it is logical that because there is such a tribal and complex chain of government in Afghanistan, Karzai's authority extends all over the country, but in the towns and cities and villages, the only person who's say really matters is the local ruler-the village headman or militia commander. This is also what alowed scotsman Rory Stewart to walk across the center of Afghanistan in 2002. He had an endorsement from Ismail Khan, so he was able to find accomidation and protection from the local commanders along the way, because even though they may not have liked each other they all owed allegance to Khan.

In the South this is a bit different. There are no big reigonal warlords, only village headmen, NATO and the Taliban. Therefore the best way for NATO to win this war is to try to extend its authority over the South using this fuedal system. If NATO can provide protection and show that it will stay, the local rulers will align their villages, towns, etc. with NATO, depriving the Taliban of the civillian support they need. Of course, the Taliban will always have the Northwest Fronteir Province to hide out in in Pakistan. But if their civillian support is denied, they will not be effective. In the Sabah and Sarawak campaign, the British defeated a dedicated insurgency even though they could not cross the border into Indonesia, where the enemy was armed trained and based, because their enemy had no local support in Sabah and Sarawak (now Bornean Malaysia).

Lastly, NATO probably has mistaken a lot of non-Taliban related acts of violence for the Taliban. I would not be suprised if I were an American commander and some villagers told me that the Taliban were using the mud-brick compound down the road as a base, then I found out that really it was just the base of a rival village militia or they were a different ethnicity or something.
 

crazyinsane105

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They're the enemy of the Afghani people, because they're only interested in power and using fear to get it back. Nato countries created this current situation by helping the Northern Alliance kick them out. The least we could do is follow through until the Afghanis can sort themselves out.



1. It isn't their country. They don't own it, nor do they have a mandate to run it.
2. There is no real evidence to show that Taleban support is growing "daily" in any meaningful manner. Does anyone know what their current strength is, what their recruitment is like, etc? No. It's just speculation.

Today Iraqi tribal chiefs said that they were forming a 20,000 strong local force to take on Al-Q and its allies in the Suuni triangle. This is in stark contrast to reports that the Iraqi insurgancy has been "growing daily", reports that have been made for ages. Although nothing like this has happened in Afghanistan, I have seen nothing to suggest that the majority of the population wants to do anything other than get on with their lives.

3. The country will not revolt, because they support the new democratic government. The only way the Taleban will regain control is if Nato countries chicken-out and refuse to finish what they started.



Why does fighting Al-Q mean we have to leave the Afghanis to be put back under the Taleban boot? Al-Q doesn't have a country we can invade - sending troops elsewhere won't stop them.


AFGHANISTAN: TIME FOR TRUTH


Do not believe what OUR media and politicians are telling us about Afghanistan. Nearly all the information we get about the five-year old war in Afghanistan comes from US and NATO public relations officers or `embedded’ journalists who merely parrot military handouts. Ask yourself, when did you last read a report from a journalist covering Taliban and other Afghan resistance forces?

Now, the official rosy view is being flatly contradicted by impartial observers.

The respected European think-tank, Senlis Council, which focuses on Afghanistan, just reported the Taliban movement is `taking back Afghanistan’ and now controls that nation’s southern half.

This is an amazing departure from claims by the US and its NATO allies that they are steadily winning the war in Afghanistan. Or, more precisely, winning it again, since the Bush Administration claimed to have won total victory in Afghanistan in 2001. At the time, this column predicted that victory was an illusion and the war would resume in force in 4-5 years.

According to the Senlis Council, southern Afghanistan is suffering `a humanitarian crisis of starvation and poverty…caused by `US-British military policies.’

Deflating optimistic western reports, Senlis investigators found, `US policies in Afghanistan have re-created the safe haven for terrorism that the 2001 invasion aimed to destroy.’ This is a bombshell.

The US and NATO have been insisting any withdrawal of their forces from Afghanistan - or from Iraq - will leave a void certain to be filled by extremists. These claims are nonsense, given that half of Afghanistan and a third of Iraq are already largely controlled by anti-western resistance forces.

Were it not for omnipotent US airpower, American and NATO forces would be quickly driven from Afghanistan and Iraq. If Afghan and Iraqi resistance forces ever manage to obtain effective man-portable anti-aircraft weapons, such as the US Stinger or Russian SA-18, the US-led occupation of those nations may become untenable. The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980’s was doomed once mujahidin forces obtained American Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.

Last week, Canadian and British commanders boasted they were about to annihilate Taliban forces `surrounded’ around Panjwai and Zahri. They crowed an `estimated 500 Taliban,’ had already been killed.

A storm of bombing and shelling did kill many Afghans, but most of the dead `suspected Taliban militants’ turned out, as usual, to be civilians. NATO failed to show bodies of dead enemy fighters to back up its absurd claims.

When NATO forces entered Panjwai after weeks of air strikes and shelling, the supposedly `surrounded’ Taliban had vanished. Embarrassed British and Canadian commanders admitted `we were surprised the enemy had fled.’ Surprised?

Doesn’t anyone remember the Vietnam War’s fruitless search and destroy missions and inflated body counts? Don’t NATO commanders know their every move is telegraphed in advance to Taliban forces? Don’t they see what’s going on now in Iraq?

Did Canadian officers making such fanciful claims really believe Taliban’s veteran guerillas would be stupid enough to sit still and be destroyed by US air power?

Now, Canadian-led NATO forces are crowing about having finally occupied Panjewi. `Taliban has fled!’ they proudly announced. Don’t they understand that guerilla forces don’t hang on to fixed positions? Occupying ground is meaningless in guerilla warfare.

Seemingly immune to history or common sense, Canada is sending a few hundred more troops and a handful of obsolete tanks to Afghanistan. Poland, which will send troops anywhere for the right price, is adding 1,000 more soldiers next year.

US, British and Canadian politicians say they are surprised by intensifying Taliban resistance. They have only their own ignorance to blame.

Attacking Pashtuns, renowned for xenophobia, warlike spirits, and love of independence is a fool’s mission. Pashtuns are Afghanistan’s ethnic majority. Taliban is an offshoot of the Pushtun people. Long-term national stability is impossible without their representation and cooperation.

What the west calls `Taliban’ is actually a growing coalition of veteran Taliban fighters led by Mullah Dadullah, other clans of Pashtun tribal warriors, and nationalist resistance forces led by Jalalladin Hakkani and former prime minister, Gulbadin Hekmatyar, whom the CIA has repeatedly tried to assassinate.

Many are former mujahidin once hailed `freedom fighters’ by the west, and branded `terrorists’ by the Soviets. They represent national resistance to foreign occupation. In fact, what the US and its NATO allies are doing in Afghanistan today uncannily mirrors the brutal Soviet occupation during the 1980’s.

The UN’s anti-narcotic agency reports Afghanistan now supplies 92% of the world’s heroin. Production has surged 40% last year alone. Who is responsible? The US and NATO. They now own narco-state Afghanistan.

Dominating the main oil export route from Central Asia was a primary objective of the US invasion of Afghanistan. Ironically, instead of an anticipated oil bonanza, the US now finds itself mired deep in the Afghan drug trade.

Washington and NATO can’t keep pretending this is someone else’s problem. Drug money fuels the Afghan economy and keeps local warlords loyal to the US-installed Kabul regime.

Afghanistan’s north has become a sphere of influence of Russia and its local allies, the Uzbek-Tajik Northern Alliance led by notorious war criminals and leaders of the old Afghan Communist Party.

The US and its allies are not going to win the Afghan war. They will be lucky the way things are going not to lose it in the same humiliating manner the Soviets did in 1989.

In recent week, near panicky calls by British PM Tony Blair for more NATO troops to be sent to Afghanistan show that western occupation forces are on the defensive, fighting to hold their bases, and facing the specter of eventual defeat. Just, in fact, like every other invader that has ever occupied Afghanistan.

A final point. US and NATO forces are not fighting `terrorists,’ as their governments claim. They are fighting the Afghan people. In the 1980’s, I saw mujahidin too poor to afford shoes strap 110lbs of mortar shells on their backs, and climb 6-8 hours over mountains through snow to bombard a Communist base, then trudge home. These are the people we are fighting. Anyone who knows Afghans know they will not be defeated, even if they must resist for an entire generation.

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SampanViking

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A final point. US and NATO forces are not fighting `terrorists,’ as their governments claim. They are fighting the Afghan people

Thank you Crazy

Precisely the point which I started this thread to try and get over to my compatriots. I am actually shocked at just how easily this country has been sleepwalked into this action and the ease with which this cynical deception is being played.

Afghanistain is a failed state because it is at war and everytime somebody seems likely to win and things start to settle down and life has a chance of starting to return to normal, thenan other outside agency sticks its oar in and starts the whole sorry exercise going again.
 
D

Deleted member 675

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Crazy, your "truth" is highly flawed and biased. Nato is not fighting THE Afghani people - it is fighting SOME Afghanis. There is a huge difference.

Sampan, we are merely trying to reinstate the original government Afghanistan had before the Soviet invasion and coup previous to that. Bullies will always push, so does that mean we should let them win? If the Police had problems in your area with drug lords and criminal gangs, should they pull out because that would be the easiest way to stop the conflict? No, because the people living there (including you and your family) would have a terrible time of it.

There is a special opportunity here to ensure the Afghani people are able to make their own destiny, rather than be pushed about by warlords, drug dealers and religious nutcases. If Nato withdrew, it would be the ultimate act of cowardice, an act of shame that would hang over the alliance for decades to come.
 
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FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Thank you Crazy

Precisely the point which I started this thread to try and get over to my compatriots. I am actually shocked at just how easily this country has been sleepwalked into this action and the ease with which this cynical deception is being played.

Afghanistain is a failed state because it is at war and everytime somebody seems likely to win and things start to settle down and life has a chance of starting to return to normal, thenan other outside agency sticks its oar in and starts the whole sorry exercise going again.

Sampan you know your history !

According to this 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the CIA's intervention in Afghanistan preceded the 1979 Soviet invasion. This decision of the Carter Administration in 1979 to intervene and destabilise Afghanistan is the root cause of Afghanistan's destruction as a nation.

M.C.

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser


Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998
Posted at globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

Translated from the French by Bill Blum


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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You see Zbigniew knew Afghans better than some chicken hawk neo-cons
that's why he chose Afghanistan to draw in the USSR.

One question to all the armchair generals on this forum. Name me ONE
occasion where Afghans have accepted and lost to an occupation

and on Afghan history please see.

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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
It is true that Afghanistan has never really been under the control of any outside power, and many have tried to stabilize and control it (British, Tsarist Russia, Communist Russia, before that the Arab Caliphs) and none have succeded. The thing they all failed to realize is what I pointed out above, how the power structure works in Afghanistan. The British understood it best and thus were able to put an anti-Russian cheiftan in power, which is the best any outside country can expect from Afghanistan, putting in a friendly person as the overall head and letting the rest of the country have its way. The power structure ensures that the overall head will always have some power. So if NATO stops trying to set up a central government and realizes the best way to keep Aghanistan terrorist and Taliban-free is to cultivate LOCAL leaders while giving Karzai or whoever is in Kabul a strong hand to play with (army, some bureacracy, money with which to influence the local leaders once NATO is gone) than everything should be just fine. The anti-NATO forces (some Pashtun tribes from Afghanistan, some from Pakistan, the Taliban, whoever) do not have enough civil support yet.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
It is true that Afghanistan has never really been under the control of any outside power, and many have tried to stabilize and control it (British, Tsarist Russia, Communist Russia, before that the Arab Caliphs) and none have succeded. The thing they all failed to realize is what I pointed out above, how the power structure works in Afghanistan. The British understood it best and thus were able to put an anti-Russian cheiftan in power, which is the best any outside country can expect from Afghanistan, putting in a friendly person as the overall head and letting the rest of the country have its way. The power structure ensures that the overall head will always have some power. So if NATO stops trying to set up a central government and realizes the best way to keep Aghanistan terrorist and Taliban-free is to cultivate LOCAL leaders while giving Karzai or whoever is in Kabul a strong hand to play with (army, some bureacracy, money with which to influence the local leaders once NATO is gone) than everything should be just fine. The anti-NATO forces (some Pashtun tribes from Afghanistan, some from Pakistan, the Taliban, whoever) do not have enough civil support yet.

?!

Finn by your comments you indicate that you know nothing about how
Pathan society works. It's not based on heirarchy. I just thought it was
sooo funny when you started talking about 'headmen'. :roll: Afghans have
a history of removing the heads of 'headmen' who's heads become too
big.

Afghans choose their leaders. People do not inherit their positions. Even
Ahmad Shah Abdali one of the greatest of all Afghan leaders was chosen
by a council of elders who themselves were chosen by the people. You're
confusing Afghan society with that of Uzbeks, Tajiks or the Mongols. Or
perhaps you've read about tribal societies in some sociology book

Man you're in for a rude awakening. I suggest you read the article before you
indulge in what the Sufi's and Japanese Zen masters call the fallacy of labels
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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More news from two serving British Army Majors in Afghanistan, via leaked e-mails.

In summary, they say that they are under constant attack, morale is low, stress is high, airpower is lacking, forces are over stretched and the UK Govt is "misrepresenting" the level and nature of casualties.

One has stated "Baghdad was easier"!

Definitly an odour of a distinctly Bovine variety eminating from Govt offices.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Hmm, I'm not sure how much a leaked e-mail counts for, because if you're going to do that you're pretty sore anyway. The larger shock is normally when someone never intended to release the information.

Anyway, I'm not sure how Afghanistan could be worse than Baghdad, considering that British deployments are in the South mostly.

Might be a bit of sympathy plugging for more funding/pent-up steam because of the lack of it (though of course it's needed anyway). Thing is they might be right, but these days I just don't trust leaks.
 
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