When was the last time China was technologically superior to the West?

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bobcou

New Member
Registered Member
China was superior or at least equal to the West until mid-aged Qing Dynasty (1800) when Euros invented Steam engines, Vaccinations, Industrialization.

Hell I would say even by 1700s it was starting to turn just due to the isolationist policy of China. But at that time, it wasn't overwhelming disadvantage, perhaps minor disadvantage due to China's sheer man power.

When the Europeans created weapons that could make one man, or one boat, represent hundreds. This just made the Chinese army useless.
 
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Hohmann

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Around the Roman times, Rome and Han china were basically very much alike (There is an awesome paper from stanford nd Oxford with the help of chinese universities analysing both civilization and the conclusion is that both had strong points and they were pretty much impressive)...
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In the middle ages; technologically speaking, China was clearly superior to the west...

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The west started to catch up in late 14, 15 century but only become technologicall superior around 17,18 century.
 
rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
cliveersknell said:
Yuan Dynasty. Best witness Marco Polo.

regards
Clive
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I would disagreed with that. Early Ming Dynasty saw many innovations too... especially in Naval warfare whereby China fielded the largest ships that had the longest leg at that time. Also she was among the strongest navies in the world during that time (see. Zheng He). However it is kind of strange that after the return of Zheng He, the emperor sealed all of the long legged ships and imposes law on ships that could travel long distance.
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
rhino123 said:
I would disagreed with that. Early Ming Dynasty saw many innovations too... especially in Naval warfare whereby China fielded the largest ships that had the longest leg at that time. Also she was among the strongest navies in the world during that time (see. Zheng He). However it is kind of strange that after the return of Zheng He, the emperor sealed all of the long legged ships and imposes law on ships that could travel long distance.
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Totally agreed. In a show on the History Channel (Anicent Discoveries), it was documented that the amount of firepower packed by Zheng He's fleet in one of his expeditions was more than the firepower of all the navies in Europe COMBINED. And this was the time when all the great powers were developing their navies.
 
IronsightSniper

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
China was pretty dominant when Europe had their dark age (which I should add, spanned many centuries of backwards thinking and ravaging warfare), however, after that, we've pretty much switched shoes and China became that backwards country on the other side of the Earth. I'd say from any where before the Mongols or after the Mongols to the Age of Imperialism was when China was technologically superior to the west. After that, China became backwards for the most part, up until the early-mid 20th century. Eventually (50 years maybe?) China might surpass us, but those days have yet to come.
 
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samba

New Member
Its pretty likely that the size of the ships in Zheng He's fleet were a gross exaggeration, considering that there are no remains of any ships coming close the to stated 125-145m, also a wooden ship of that size would be structurally unfeasable
 
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delft

Brigadier
samba said:
Its pretty likely that the size of the ships in Zheng He's fleet were a gross exaggeration, considering that there are no remains of any ships coming close the to stated 125-145m, also a wooden ship of that size would be structurally unfeasable
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The size of the these ships is estimated from the size of a rudder king post found on the yard where these ships were built.
The assumption, surely reasonable, is that the length of the ship is at least as large the same multiple of the diameter of this king post as according to the rule of thumb for recent Chinese junks. Here are two suppositions. One: As the king post is one of the largest and most expensive timbers used it makes sense to use in a large ship with many masts a relatively smaller rudder with a smaller king post. But the ship builder kept to the rule of thumb. Two: The king post found was the of largest size ever used. If one or both of these suppositions is false the largest ships were even larger.
I read this in "Science and Civilisation in China", Book 4 Part 3, Civil Engineering and Nautics, by Joseph Needham, nearly forty years ago. I don't have the book here.
Because Chinese ships used many full bulkheads it was possible to build them larger than Western ships could be build before the introduction of iron structural members.
 
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delft

Brigadier
The ships of Zheng He must have absorbed an immense number of large trees. The ability to build his fleets speaks for large scale shipbuilding around 1400. Might the damage caused to the forests of Chine by that shipbuilding have been one factor, besides the wish to prevent the merchants developing political power, to end this practice?

Trees and Timber in the Ancient Mediterranean World, by R. Meiggs, describes the damage done to forests in the Mediterranean in the time of the Ancient Greeks and the Roman Empire. Later the Muslims had inferior forest resources and that weakened the Civilized World against the crusading barbarians. Still later in Scotland the forests were plundered in the 16th century to build large warships. The British were greatly handicapped around 1780 by the loss of access to the forests of New England, which enabled the French to effectively support the rebels against their legal and thick-headed sovereign.( see R.G.Albion - Forests and Sea Power: The Timber Problem of the Royal Navy, 1652-1862)

So perhaps the Chinese Emperor was protecting his forests and perhaps also agricultural soil against erosion.
 
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Red Moon

Junior Member
delft said:
The ships of Zheng He must have absorbed an immense number of large trees. The ability to build his fleets speaks for large scale shipbuilding around 1400. Might the damage caused to the forests of Chine by that shipbuilding have been one factor, besides the wish to prevent the merchants developing political power, to end this practice?

Trees and Timber in the Ancient Mediterranean World, by R. Meiggs, describes the damage done to forests in the Mediterranean in the time of the Ancient Greeks and the Roman Empire. Later the Muslims had inferior forest resources and that weakened the Civilized World against the crusading barbarians. Still later in Scotland the forests were plundered in the 16th century to build large warships. The British were greatly handicapped around 1780 by the loss of access to the forests of New England, which enabled the French to effectively support the rebels against their legal and thick-headed sovereign.( see R.G.Albion - Forests and Sea Power: The Timber Problem of the Royal Navy, 1652-1862)

So perhaps the Chinese Emperor was protecting his forests and perhaps also agricultural soil against erosion.
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There is a connection between "social stability" and the proscribing of large ships at that time, but, at least as I understand it, it had to do with preventing the huge inflow of gold which was causing inflation... and thus social instability. Generally speaking, merchants were not a separate class as in Europe. Rather, the land owning gentry took this up themselves, as well as service to the state, in order to supplement their income.
 
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