When was the last time China was technologically superior to the West?

Split off from other thread...

Roger604 said:

I don't think China has been technologically superior to the West since the early days of gunpowder, Chinese age of sail, cannons and fire lances. That would be 14th to 15th century.

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Subedei said:

Possibly, but, Chinese naval forces did defeat a Portuguese naval force in 1521-22, and a Dutch naval force in 1661-62. Additionally, the outcomes of the Russian–Manchu border conflicts of the 1650's -90's favored the Chinese. Therefore, could it not be deduced reasonably that the superiority of European military technology -and naval technology in particular- was not demonstrated -comparitively- until the eighteenth-century, and -effectively- until the nineteenth-century?

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Yes, the very first documented military encounters between China and the West favored China. Qing Dynasty defeated Tsarist Russia. They had Jesuits on the Chinese side translating for them. The Dutch were defeated over Taiwan. Tang Dynasty went deep into Pamir Mountains and clashed with Islam armies. Ming Dynasty's treasure fleet went to South Asia and clashed with Hindu tribes there.

I understand that by late 15th century Europeans had caught up and exceeded China in many respects. But because Europe was so far away from China, Europe had to first dominate over the Islamic World, Africa and South Asia before it could possibly pose a threat to China. Both China and Japan imported arquebuses during the Imjin War in the late Ming dynasty.

The early Qing Dynasty was a time of territorial expansion. After Qing fully conquered neighboring nomadic tribes, Qianlong decided the Middle Kingdom did not need firearms and technology was disruptive to the social order so he banned it.

50 years after Qianlong's very long reign, the British Empire came and showed that the West by that time was already several hundred years ahead in technology. This ultimately brought an end to the classical Chinese civilization, which had emphasized etiquette, harmony and metaphysical order (pre-19th century Europeans had enormous respect for China), and created 150 years of disaster that is only beginning to reverse now.

china only got surpass around the 1800's. even then china still had water tight compartments for ships. deep salt mine drilling by product is natural gas didn't catch up till early 1900's. gliding tech and parachute made in china thousands of years before, mainly use for entertainment.

hell even the modern helicopter blades was based on a chinese childerns toy. don't get me started on how the west always Leonardo this and that. his stuff wasn't practical. hot air balloon isn't a french invention base on another Chinese toy.

china had a coal industy for a thousand years, it was use for making steel and other things.

when the british paddle boats invaded china they thought the chinese copy them pretty quickly even though the paddle boats been in use for battle for another thousand years in china.

the match china had that for over thousand years only around 1800's europe had it.

toilet paper for emperors use or very rich guy.

water skimming rocket for destroying ships. landmines, flame thrower, someone other than me look up the dates for those things.

this is just top of my head, there is more.

the problem with china is when the west finally meet china, chinese emperors destroy the sea fearing abilities of the nation. most people think of Chinese ships are flat bottomed, but the Ming emperors did that, they destroy the building of any ocean going ships. when the Europeans came they only had flat bottom river boats. china had a navy that was unsurpassed from the song dynasty and up till the ming. rudder and compass made in china. a very good western book called "when china rule the seas" documents some of the sailing ships through the centuries up to the ming fleet.

What do you mean by technologically superior? Is it military, materials, or medicinal? There are some Chinese swords dating from the Qin era that were so well forged that people couldn't replicate them.

If you are talking about the military I would say that the West started surpassing China in the mid till late 1400s. Match lock firearms, grained powder, and large cannons and bombards were invented and employed while the Chinese firearms technology remained relatively stagnant until the 1500s when Western firearms were, ironically, reintroduced to China.

If you are talking about the military I would say that the West started surpassing China in the mid till late 1400s. Match lock firearms, grained powder, and large cannons and bombards were invented and employed while the Chinese firearms technology remained relatively stagnant until the 1500s when Western firearms were, ironically, reintroduced to China.

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only in cannon and guns.

chinese ship design(paddle boats), rockets, mustard gas, land mines(use wheellock , around song dynasty, kinda ironic they didn't put this onto a firearm.) was superior to the west in the 1400s.

still around that time Chinese were using paper armor to stop the primitive rounds.

I believe the main thing about ancient China is that she didn't really have very good continuous system and politics that support technology advancement... and I emphasis on the word continuous... Whenever there is a change in dynasty, the new dynasty would change the system of ruling and most probably the policy and politics... look to Qin and Han...

Secondly, the chinese value humility more than science... they look to teaching of old wise men and to be loyal to the royal family - emperors, etc. But they do not value science as much. However every dynasty there are bound to have some genius that created something out of this world... and after that everyone would be using this creation for centuries to come with no innovation or modification to it.

I believe also that at around the period prior to 1400, China is the most technologically advance nation in the area and there are many invention prior to that era that are extremely advance and out of the world and there are very few external threats that could challenge China directly and so the people are not too worry about creating something more powerful.

Unlike the West, where there are wars during that time and many small nations forming Europe. These nations are at war or trying to protect themselves from invasion, so they have the incentive to create something better or at least on par with their neighbour for survival... thus they continue growing in strenght. China on the other hand are the strongest in the neighbourhood, biggest also... and so she was not in any threat from her neighbours and thus there is no need for creation of new weaponries as sword, bow and crossbows are enough to defeat her opponents (that have worst weapons).

Oh... and at around Ming dynasty when external pressure started to be felt by the Chinese, they started weapon innovation and also massive influx of Western weapons. And thus we are also seeing the most powerful navy at that time (the one sail by Zheng He). So in summary, there are quite a number of reasons for the Chinese to be lagging behind the West in term of technology:

1) Chinese Politics (lack of continuous system that encourage innovation)
2) Lack of threats that would require new and more powerful weapons.
3) Relative peaceful surrounding.

armchairwarrior said:

mustard gas

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Whoa! I didn't expect that. I thought mustard gas was something in WW1? Can you give more details?

rhino123 said:

Secondly, the chinese value humility more than science... they look to teaching of old wise men and to be loyal to the royal family - emperors, etc. But they do not value science as much.

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The Qing Dynasty in particular was ultra-conservative culturally. The ethnic Manchu Qing rulers wanted stability at all costs and the way they did it was to promote / preserve / freeze Han Chinese culture at the late Ming Dynasty stage. "Look we are more Chinese than you are, and we don't even speak Manchurian anymore nor are we nomadic, so please don't rebel and let us stay in this wonderful land."

And on top of that, the late Ming Dynasty (eunuch politics) was quite conservative too compared to the dynamic and imaginative early Ming Dynasty (early gunpowder and all that) and Song Dynasty (steel smelting).

rhino123 said:

Oh... and at around Ming dynasty when external pressure started to be felt by the Chinese, they started weapon innovation and also massive influx of Western weapons. And thus we are also seeing the most powerful navy at that time (the one sail by Zheng He).

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I think you got your timeline mixed up. Zheng He was early Ming. Ming was far technologically dominant although early seafaring Europeans like Portuguese started around this time.

Importing western guns came in the late Ming.

Roger604 said:

I think you got your timeline mixed up. Zheng He was early Ming. Ming was far technologically dominant although early seafaring Europeans like Portuguese started around this time.

Importing western guns came in the late Ming.

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Oops. My bad. Sorry about that.

You are correct, the Ming started importing western weaponries at late Ming.

The main point that I am trying to portray was that China only started importing military equipments and develope their own weapon earnestly when they felt threats (mainly external threats)...

Roger604 said:

This ultimately brought an end to the classical Chinese civilization, which had emphasized etiquette, harmony and metaphysical order (pre-19th century Europeans had enormous respect for China), and created 150 years of disaster that is only beginning to reverse now.

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I wonder how much you really understand feudal China when you write naively romantic statements like that. The feudal Chinese society was incredibly repressive, with philosophies like: "When the father wants his son to die, the son has to obey.", polygamism, foot binding, forced marriage, eunnuchs, kowtowing, concubinage, etc.

Yes, it enforced a stable and centralized government, allowing relative prosperity based on an agricultural economy. However, it also stagnated technological development. Chinese technological progress was the result of brilliant individuals being recognized and passing on their creations. Many of those brilliant individuals did not get recognized and their works were lost forever. There was never any formal system to encourage technological progress, like the Scientific Method pioneered by Descartes and Locke. Classical Chinese education emphasized Confucian philosophy and eschewed mathematics and the natural sciences. Worse even, natural sciences was intermixed with dangerous superstitions and based on unsound principles, as is the case with Taoism and Traditional Chinese Medicine.

The Western invasion and colonization opened the eyes of the common Chinese to the flaws of their existing society. They did not just defeat the Qing with better guns and cannons. They nearly bankrupted the Qing economy with superior manufacturing technologies. They flooded the Qing market with goods that were cheaper and of better quality than the hand-crafted goods made by Chinese artisans, thus creating massive public debt and social unrest (as workers who have plied their fathers trade for generations suddenly found themselves out of a job).

Where the Confucian society was a shining beacon of civilization in a world of nomadic tribes and theocratic serfdoms, it was a dark pit of oppression and stagnation in a modern world of individual freedoms, equality, and scientific research.

Confucian government officials in ancient china put inventors in jail or death many times for inventing labor saving devices. in their minds you are putting people out of work. their words. Confucians are like modern socialist, they do things so people have work even if its very inefficient.

Roger604 said:

Whoa! I didn't expect that. I thought mustard gas was something in WW1? Can you give more details?

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I think he meant bombs that released arsenic and other poisons. First chemical weapon, if you will.