What the Heck?! Thread (Closed)

[PanAsian]

Double like
I share the same sentiments, but cannot express them as well as yourself, and end up pissing off half the forum.

Thanks, I might be pissing off half the forum anyways.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Involuntary ignorance is effective ambivalence.

All I can say is that China, as well as other victims of Imperial Japan, can either approach the issue in a way that builds relations with modern Japan to mutual benefit or in a way that harms relations with modern Japan that are highly exploitable by others for ulterior motives. China has much to gain with the former and much to lose with the latter, so far it has not invested sufficiently in the former.

There are three main reasons (that I can think of for which) China does not go the way you suggest.

1. To do so while Japan continues to deny its past wrongdoings is to acquiesce their success in dodging their past. The stance of the Chinese people is clear: this issue must be satisfactorily resolved rather than washed away with time. Countless Chinese cinema and drama recount Japan's atrocities to the younger generations so that time may not wear away Chinese commitment on this issue. At this point, the Chinese people do not want cooperation with Japan. Should the government violate that will for the benefits without considering the implications to the pride of the people, it would not be reflecting the population that it is obligated to represent.

2. Because Japan is not a free country, the benefits of mutual trust are limited at this phase. It would be bound to perhaps greater trade, less Japanese lip service to the elements that annoy China, cooperation on some projects (may benefit Japan more than China), some other scraps. Rather, it would be more beneficial to Japan as it would unleash a horde of Chinese cash-rich tourists that buy things like ravenous rodents to boost the Japanese economy, many of whom may choose other destinations now because their moral consciences hold them back. However, perhaps the biggest obstacle is that enhanced relations with Japan will not budge the main issue and that's that the US will continue to use Japan as a base to launch its naval operations against China. This is beyond Japan's ability to control and without this, to get better relations with Japan is to obtain a crown missing the center gem. Sadly, it's pointless to negotiate the sale of the house with the butler, though he may be able to get you some drapes and linens.

3. It is extremely difficult to do so! To get better relations with Japan, would you protest or not when they changed their textbooks to say that all the comfort women volunteered? Would you protest or not when they say they never entered Nanjing? Would you protest or not when they visit that hellish shrine? Would you relinquish your claim to the Diaoyu islands? These are some really hard issues that are deadlocked and it wouldn't make any sense for China to give way on them, especially not for the meager scraps that come with enhanced relationships with a puppet nation.

 

[manqiangrexue]

That is an accurate but one dimensional description of the status quo centered on power politics which is insufficient for developing good relations not to mention genuine partnership in a shared new vision. It merely has players change positions in the same game rather than changing the game itself. What I am talking about is not forgiving the past but acknowledging it for posterity thereby getting on the same page for the future.

Power politics is actually very sufficient for developing the type of good relations that carry this world today. It is not, however, able to develop your ideal of "good relations" which, I see no example of in today's world. You want to change to game, but this is the only game the world plays. Become powerful, then take things from countries that are against you and give them to countries willing to kiss your behind. Then, you'll have good relations with that country because you share the same interests/goals in keeping down those countries against you. (When China actually unifies Asia under its leadership, the shared goal/vision would be to come together and out-innovate/out-compete their Western rivals and to make Asia the economic and innovation capital of the world, though by that time, the Western nations would probably already be running on fumes having expended all their energy trying to stop a unified Asia from coming to pass.) Your "different game", sounds to me like it revolves around finding love between countries and establishing friendly relations like people would find friends whom they genuinely are fond of, regardless of any benefits. This does not exist in international relations; it is currently a unicorn-like fantasy to chase this ideal (if I understand you properly). You would win the Nobel Peace Prize of the Universe for an indefinite span of time if you could make it happen.

 

[Janiz]

When China actually unifies Asia under its leadership, the shared goal/vision would be to come together and out-innovate/out-compete their Western rivals and to make Asia the economic and innovation capital of the world, though by that time, the Western nations would probably already be running on fumes having expended all their energy trying to stop a unified Asia from coming to pass.

Not only he knows what SHOULD be done for sure, he's got a plan for that!

lol, and he's getting likes from some (the same all the time btw) users here.

Countless Chinese cinema and drama recount Japan's atrocities to the younger generations so that time may not wear away Chinese commitment on this issue.

lol, Chinese mainly laugh at those stories, kids as well. And you're at the point of not accepting the reality and being in your own world. I'm sure it's comfortable.

"China will", "China should"... Power politics et cetera.

At least I learned from you and this very thread 'how the world plays'. A vauluable piece of knowledge. I will cherish this moment with my kids from now on every anniversary of this 'manfesto'!

 

[manqiangrexue]

Not only he knows what SHOULD be done for sure, he's got a plan for that!

lol, and he's getting likes from some (the same all the time btw) users here.

lol, Chinese mainly laugh at those stories, kids as well. And you're at the point of not accepting the reality and being in your own world. I'm sure it's comfortable.

"China will", "China should"... Power politics et cetera.

At least I learned from you and this very thread 'how the world plays'. A vauluable piece of knowledge. I will cherish this moment with my kids from now on every anniversary of this 'manfesto'!

Well, there's only so many users on here who post. You're thinking I'd get new names coming out from the woodwork liking my posts? How many different names have you got liking yours? LOL

How do you know what the Chinese laugh at? I'm Chinese. My friends are Chinese. My family is Chinese. The people on this thread who agree with me are Chinese. What are your credentials? Read some articles written by Westerners who say most Chinese people want their own government overthrown? LOL Look at this guy who think he knows Chinese people better than Chinese people know Chinese people! Denial is so rampant in Japan, if I had a pic of a tentacle monster raping a 12 year old girl every time I heard a Japanese deny a globally-recognized, UNESCO-document war crime, I could glue them together and make a Miyazaki feature length film hahaha.

 

[Janiz]

if I had a pic of a tentacle monster raping a 12 year old girl every time I heard a Japanese deny a globally-recognized, UNESCO-document war crime, I could glue them together and make a Miyazaki feature length film hahaha.

You just can't argue with this guy. And if that's the picture of Chinese that so many people here like then let it be forever. I rest my case.

 

[delft]

No objection to anything you said here.

But my take is rather bleak (or realistic IMO). That is NO ONE will sincerely regret and amend their wrong past without a total defeat and INITIAL forced/imposed admission of their wrong past. I admire the often talked about German sincerity compared to Japan. BUT only to a point. Without occupation by victim countries such as France and Soviet Union, I expect Germany would not have been much better than Japan. Germany could have been easily and happily be a good buddy with US while stubbornly refusing to accept its guilt towards anyone else. The French and Soviet occupation forced Germany to face up its guilt to all victimized countries on European continent.

History can not be "what-ifed", we would never know, but I would not automatically assume something (even good ones) is a given when there is a condition that can make big differences.

What happened in the past and more importantly what is happening today will shape the future. On this account, Japan is loosing the future by its very own act. Nobody can offer anything if Japan does not want to take it. The track record of Japanese ruling class does prove that with a few exceptions (村山富市 and 河野洋平). Abe is just going further away than anyone else has.

As support for your mistrust I read an article in Christian Science Monitor late last year that said the proportion of (ex)members of the Nazi party among the civil servants of the Ministry of Justice of (West)Germany was larger after 1945 than before and reached a peak in 1958. This was recently found and this investigation had been carefully delayed.

 

[B.I.B.]

As support for your mistrust I read an article in Christian Science Monitor late last year that said the proportion of (ex)members of the Nazi party among the civil servants of the Ministry of Justice of (West)Germany was larger after 1945 than before and reached a peak in 1958. This was recently found and this investigation had been carefully delayed.

I think the reason for this is pretty simple.With deteriorating relations with the Soviet Union, thevictorious western powers lead by the U.S. went soft on the Germans and many former Nazi members continued to hold important administrative roles.
Its a pity the americans forgot this when they conquered Iraq. They got rid of so many Bathist , there was no one left to administer the country.

 

[delft]

Posts about the relations between Trump and the Russians belong, if anywhere, here. And this is a sensible one:

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The dodgy Donald Trump dossier reminds me of the row over Saddam Hussein and his fictitious weapons of mass destruction
I talked to Iraqi defectors in the 1990s who claimed to have plenty of information about WMDs and gossip about Hussein’s family affairs. It did not take long to work out that they were making it up when they produced convincing but uncheckable details

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I read the text of the dossier on

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with a scepticism that soon turned into complete disbelief. The memo has all the hallmarks of such fabrications, which is too much detail – and that detail largely uncheckable – and too many names of important people placed there to impress the reader with the sheer quantity and quality of information.

I was correspondent in Moscow in the 1980s and again during the first years in power of

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. Every so often, people would tell me intriguing facts about the dark doings of the Kremlin and its complicity in various crimes, such as the infamous apartment block bombings in 1999. But my heart used to sink when the informant claimed to know too much and did not see that what they were saying contained a fatal contradiction: Putin and his people were pictured as unscrupulous and violent people, but at the same time they were childishly incapable of keeping a secret damaging to themselves.

The conclusions reached in the Trump dossier similarly claim to be based on multiple sources of information where, in the nature of things, they are unlikely to exist. The dossier cites at least seven of them. “Speaking to a trusted compatriot in June 2016 sources A and B, a senior Russian Foreign Ministry and a former top level Russian intelligence officer still active inside the Kremlin respectively, [said that] the Russian authorities had been cultivating and supporting US Republican presidential candidate, Donald TRUMP, for at least five years.”

I obviously failed as a correspondent when I was in Russia because it turns out that Moscow is choc-a-bloc with fellows in senior positions willing to blow the gaff on the Kremlin’s deep laid plans. A and B, despite achieving high rank, apparently remain touchingly naive and more than willing to make revelations that, if known, would get them imprisoned or shot in short order.

Reading the papers on Trump brought back memories of talking to Iraqi defectors in the 1990s who claimed to have plenty of information about

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(WMD) and gossip about his family affairs. It did not take long to work out that they were making it up when they produced convincing but uncheckable details about the doings of some of the more dangerous and suspicious people in the world, with whom the defectors claimed have had frank and revealing conversations.

In its determination to damage Trump, the US press corps has been happy to suspend disbelief in this dubious document. The former member of MI6, Christopher Steele, reportedly has a high reputation in espionage circles and was stationed in Moscow 20 years ago. The New York Times is unworried by his consequent inability to travel to Moscow “to study Mr Trump’s connections there”. This is where the famed MI6 tradecraft proved so useful. Steele is said to have “hired native Russian speakers to call informants inside Russia and made surreptitious contact with his own connections in the country as well.”

The word “contact” is a useful word for journalists because it could mean a highly-placed friend or, alternatively, it might refer to some lowly freelancer who is being paid to supply information. Having Russian speakers call up Russians in Russia is an astute move, though it presupposes that FSB does not monitor foreign phone calls to people with sensitive information.

I suspect that those Iraqi defectors who used to tell me tall tales about WMD and the home life of Saddam Hussein would have dreamed up a more convincing story than this.

BBC Radio 4 is telling me this morning that the same Mr Steele was hired by the British Football Association to help win the the 2018 by investigating FIFA and other candidates. If this is the quality of evidence against FIFA and the Russian sporting authorities acceptable to FBI .......

 

[KIENCHIN]

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Yup, the next four years is gonna be mighty interesting, that is we survive unscathed from a Trump presidency.