Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you think?

For PLAN's situation, wouldn't you strategically place mines, so that you bottle up the US CVBG, then those slow but quiet SSKs can wait there? This is only real for a Taiwan Strait scenario though...

China's SSKs are for now quite useless in the deeper oceans...but if China wants to only focus on winning a regional high tech war, I think SSK is the way to go for now, in terms of countering what S. Korea and Japan are fielding, and creating enough quiet subs to establish quite a credible deterrent, making USN think twice before entering area.

12 Kilo, 12 Song...that is quite a worry for any USN commander. Unlike the Cold War days, where the Soviets were willing to throw expendable and relatively loud SSKs into the great war for the Atlantic, eg, the Foxtrots, what China fields today is not only fielded in considerable number, but these subs the USN should be greatly concerned, because they are incorporating the best of Russian and Western techs...

eg...Song is probably as capable as French Agosta...and Agosta was considered as kick ass compared to many Russian SSKs except for Bravo and Kilo during the late Cold War.

China also may seek advanced torpedo countermeasures like mobile decoys and hard-kill anti-torpedo torpedoes to increase the survivability of its surface ships and submarines.

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Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

BLUEJACKET said:

That will depend on the distances involved. If the SSK is far enough it can use the decoy, stop its own movement or , wait for the search to focus on the decoy and then either leave the area quietly or sit it out.

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Some of this been around/modernized since WWII!

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If the distance is close enough to launch either a torpedo or a anti-air missile, then there are going to be other assets near by. The SSK will be had. It does not have the endurance to "wait it out" and the opfor knows it. It is also not fast enough to hope that a radical course change will help. If it fires a decoy, then the opfor will simply prosecute both...or if the decoy is fired when opfor assets are near by, the opfor will know which target did the firing and prosecute it.

In any case, if there is an active search going on, close enough for the SSK to think about a torpedo launch or an anti-air missile launch, it is very likely that the SSK is toast...not 100% sure, but very likely.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Jeff Head said:

If the distance is close enough to launch either a torpedo or a anti-air missile, then there are going to be other assets near by. The SSK will be had. It does not have the endurance to "wait it out" and the opfor knows it. It is also not fast enough to hope that a radical course change will help. If it fires a decoy, then the opfor will simply prosecute both...or if the decoy is fired when opfor assets are near by, the opfor will know which target did the firing and prosecute it.

In any case, if there is an active search going on, close enough for the SSK to think about a torpedo launch or an anti-air missile launch, it is very likely that the SSK is toast...not 100% sure, but very likely.

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Even if it freezes all movement/noise while the decoy mimics her noises?

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

BLUEJACKET said:

Even if it freezes all movement/noise while the decoy mimics her noises?

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Active sonar from surface vessels or other submarines, and helicopter's dipping sonar will still find her. Decoys are normally launched to fool torpedoes that are looking for you...the sonars onboard helos, patrol aircraft, and surface vessels, as well as subs, will not be easily fooled. Again, this is presuming that an active search was already underway in the vicinity when the missile was launched, or the decoy itself. Otherwise, there would be no need to launch such devices.

If there was only a single helicopter, a long distance from its vessel or any other support, then the anti-air missile may work. But realize, when the helo goes down, the helo's own vessel will immediately nail down the AO of the sub and you can bet that more aircraft and vessels will quickly converge on that area. A diesel/electric will be hard pressed to get far enough away to avoid detection even in that case.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

chicket9 said:

12 Kilo, 12 Song...that is quite a worry for any USN commander. Unlike the Cold War days, where the Soviets were willing to throw expendable and relatively loud SSKs into the great war for the Atlantic, eg, the Foxtrots, what China fields today is not only fielded in considerable number, but these subs the USN should be greatly concerned, because they are incorporating the best of Russian and Western techs...

eg...Song is probably as capable as French Agosta...and Agosta was considered as kick ass compared to many Russian SSKs except for Bravo and Kilo during the late Cold War.

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With all due respect, but the PLAN has nowhere the submarine capability the old Soviet Union have. At its peak, the USSR had dozens of Kilo SSKs, AKula I, AKula II, Sierra, Sierra II, OScar SSGNs, and legions of Victor III classes.

Other than the Kilo, no PLAN assets can even match any of the USSR's boats.

As for the song, there is no proof that it is comparable to an Agosta or for a KILO for that matter.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

A submarine's best defense against ships and ASW aircraft is to remain undetected. MANPADs are last-ditch defense when you're forced to surface. For example, during the Falklands War, the British discovered ARA Santa Fe and dropped ASW torpedos on it:



The AS.12 saw action on both sides of the 1982 Falklands War. It was fired from Westland Wasp helicopters against Argentine submarine the ARA Santa Fe. A total of nine missiles were fired at the submarine trapped on the surface by a Mk 46 anti-submarine torpedo circling just under the hull [1]. Of the missiles fired four hit, four missed and one failed to launch. Two of the missiles that hit the target failed to detonate on impact, instead punching a hole through the slender conning tower and exploding on the far side.



However on April 25 the Santa Fe was spotted by Westland Wessex HAS.Mk.3 helicopter from HMS Antrim, and attacked with depth charges. HMS Plymouth launched a Westland Wasp HAS.Mk.1 helicopter, and HMS Brilliant launched a Westland Lynx HAS.Mk.2. The Lynx launched a torpedo, and strafed with its pintle GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun), the Wessex also fired on the Santa Fe with its GPMG. The Wasp from HMS Plymouth aswell as two other Wasps launched from HMS Endurance fired AS-12 ASM anti-ship missiles at the submarine scoring hits. Santa Fe was damaged badly enough to prevent her from submerging. The crew abandoned the submarine at the jetty at King Edward Point on South Georgia and surrendered to the British forces.


From the above, we can see that the Santa Fe was forced to surface to dodge the torpedo, and the British helicopters basically just came in and hit it with everything they had. The Santa Fe was defenseless against the British ASW helicopers because they lacked air defense weapons.

Had the Santa Fe been equipped with SAM/MANPADs, they might've shot down some British helicopters, or kept them at distance. Then they can wait for the torpedo to run out of fuel, and submerge to safety.

The AS.12 AShM is a light missile with very short range (~5km). Most MANPADs have effective range of 4km-5km. It'd have been an interesting missile shoot-out between submarine and helicopter.

In case you missed this:



As UCAVs are now being developed, some of them will be later deployed on submarines of all types (except mini). They will engage ASW helos, ships & patrol planes at greater distances thus improving the submarine's survivability.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2560

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Late mod Mk 46 torps already have the ability to hit surfaced subs, so no more Santa Fe like cases.

There is only 1 sub launched UCAV in dev. The SSGN launched Comorant. And it has no anti air capability. Where did planeman get idea of UCAV shooting down heli?

Anyway, soon it won't matter, when Mk 46 torps are launched from P-3 or P-8s at 20,000ft. SH-60R Helis also have very good IR countermeasures equipment.