Was India"s descision on the MMRCA Deal correct?

Rafale is a good development choice for a reasonable price. Read the whole contract and not just the orderd numbers of toys.

aksha said:

steam catapults are for large carriers ,the indian carriers are too small for them

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Not true the French carrier Charles de Gaulle has a displacement of 42000 ton and has 2 steam cats and the Brazilian carrier Sao Paolo (former French carrier Foch) has a displacement of only 32800 ton and also have steam cats.

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But the navy says there will be some space constraints due to the catapults therefore lesser number of aircraft's can be carried.

aksha said:

but rafale needs steam catapults and indian aircraft carriers do not have them

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I don't think Rafale needs Steam catapult to launch. The canard design improve lifting and faciliate carrier ops, even idea for jump ski.

But the problem comes, if you want a full load Rafale to be launched from jump ski....

India currently doesn't need latest and best fighters, Rafale and Typhoon are suffice. What it needs is the licensed production line and to learn how to design and build jets from the French. India doesn't have powerful enemies. The only possible powerful enemy is China and the tension is almost minimal along the Himalayas. China just recently replaced the jets there to J-10 and J-11. Until recently it was only J-6 and J-7, showing the relaxed atmosphere in the area.

Although Pakistan can put up a fight to India, their air force is too small and has too few pilots. India can flood them with even just 3rd generation jets.

What India currently needs the most is to upgrade and improve domestic aeronautical industry. Look at Hal Tejas, it was in R&D for almost 40 years and yet still not in mass production. It's more important to have a capable domestic industry than to importe the best and the latest from abroad. Of course US military buy from abroad, but they only buy the insignificant stuff, like rifles and harriers. The real core weaponry are still 100% American.

In case of another embargo and coincidentally a war with Pakistan at the same time, India would be screwed without a domestic industry.

If only HAL Tejas met its original projected timeline there won't be the need for MMRCA, or at least in a smaller scale - in short, MMRCA is yet another example of India's "plan B approach" when they made their indigenous project too ambitious and can't deliver on schedule and on budget.

But do they make a right choice? Like all the other similar projects in the past, it's a good one if they can keep it on budget and within schedule. That means it better proceed uneventful...but it's India we're talking about here.

India just imports all the parts from outside countrys and like a jigsaw puts them together inside India and gives them a Indian name, if u look at Indias imports its becomes very clear very fast whats going on

for LCA India first tried to make Kaveri engine which failed spectacular fashion, then India turned to USA for F404 engine

India got

17 x F404 in 2004
and after Kaveri engine failure they then imported
24 x F404 in 2007
and then switched engines to
99 x F414 in 2011

so now they have 41 x F404 and 99 F414 engines, which has meant further delays in development for LCA cus they changed engine!!

infact India still imports turbo props from Canada, USA and Ukraine

from Canada they imported

181 x PT-6 in 2011 for PC-7 trainers

from Ukarine

100 x AI-20 in 2011 for An-32

and from USA

112 x TPE-331 from 1986-2011 for Do-228

I heard that indigenous helicopter is also the same, assembled with mostly foreign parts. If my memory serves me correctly, it's called HAL Dhruv?

Unfortunately China's indigenous civil passenger jet is undergoing the same problem, almost everything is imported. No major sub-system is from a domestic supplier. China currently just builds the shell, everything else inside are foreign. Hopefully the percentage of domestic parts increase.

Yes but Chinas has a aggressive and active desire to make its own sub-systems along the way, many of the aircraft programmes have domestic engines in the pipeline as does the vast Chinese helicopter programme, one good thing with China civilian sector is that they can rely on the military developments which are indigenous to provide help

infact i hope that Chinese military provides more information and help to the civilian sector

asif iqbal said:

India just imports all the parts from outside countrys and like a jigsaw puts them together inside India and gives them a Indian name, if u look at Indias imports its becomes very clear very fast whats going on

for LCA India first tried to make Kaveri engine which failed spectacular fashion, then India turned to USA for F404 engine

India got

17 x F404 in 2004
and after Kaveri engine failure they then imported
24 x F404 in 2007
and then switched engines to
99 x F414 in 2011

so now they have 41 x F404 and 99 F414 engines, which has meant further delays in development for LCA cus they changed engine!!

infact India still imports turbo props from Canada, USA and Ukraine

from Canada they imported

181 x PT-6 in 2011 for PC-7 trainers

from Ukarine

100 x AI-20 in 2011 for An-32

and from USA

112 x TPE-331 from 1986-2011 for Do-228

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Not many have mastered in Aircraft jet engine, and it is not like such technological know how are easily available, for example a South Korean MBT K2 Black Panther, they use a German mil after their own effort to design one was not satisfactory, now that is for a MBT, that do not make K2 Black Panther less South Korean and we are discussing Aircrafts, with a very few successive engine manufacturer in competitive market. Even one of the non US competitor of MMRCA proposed a model with a GE-414 engine on it. Using imported components upon an Aircraft does not make an Aircraft not belonging of that nation.

If you say Kaveri engine failed to delivery the require performance, then yes it is, but if you say Kaveri engine is a failure no it is not, it have succesfully completed high altitude test in Russia and still development have not stopped,

The fact that Kaveri is unable to deliver the required optimum performance is criticised but the project is not discouraged. It may see other application and the technical know how gained is treasured which may see future usage, like for a UCAV, Kaveri is proposed to be used upon it, Acquiring foreign made UCAV for a nation might be of problem due to MTCR restrictions, and that is where the effort done upon Kaveri is expected to bear its fruit

A domestic technology and product in a war fighting machine is asked for so that your decision making in a war scenario is not influenced or subjected to a foreign nations approval, it gives you the liberty to make your own decision without any clause attached as you wont be bound by any clause or agreement.

But in the other hand using lower performing products for a weapon might give the enemy an advantage in a war scenario.

So decision of selecting the right weapon for her forces is decided upon that basis.

But technology and ability reached are not in vain when their are scopes for application.

A Kaveri fitted Tejas would have been great but not at the expense of Aircraft performance and Indian Air Force wont be happy if they are forced to accept a less able aircraft when their are chances of getting more form the product.

It is a good news that aircraft engines are available in the Market to put in an indigenously made aircraft, other wise the only option available would be to put the lower performance Kaveri on Tejas.

Using foreign made engines upon domestic aircraft is not limited to India Aircraft industry solely.
But manufacturing a domestic product (may be with imported components) is certainly limited to a few among the rest. If it cannot be termed as best, it can be atleast termed as better then mere buying foreign final end products.