Visits to Naval Bases (pictures from those visits)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

sumdud said:
But what did Bush do that was spetacular? Enough to get a shipe named after him so quickly?

This is BUSH41. The 41st president, the current Bush's father. My guess is it had to do with his role in the first Iraq war. Huge coalition, huge success as to the aims of that coalition.

For many Americans, it finally shook of the spectre of the Vietnam War and the political failure (it was NOT a military defeat) that caused the loss there.

But that's just my opinion...probably just as much, if not more so, it could be purely political.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

I'm just wondering, how many more helicopters than 4500 and how many more planes than 3000 should have been lost in order for us to be able to say it was a military loss, compared to north vietnamese high tech losses? Also, how much money was spent in that war by US and how much by north vietnamese?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

Totoro said:
I'm just wondering, how many more helicopters than 4500 and how many more planes than 3000 should have been lost in order for us to be able to say it was a military loss, compared to north vietnamese high tech losses? Also, how much money was spent in that war by US and how much by north vietnamese?
Totoro, total numbers do not equal a military loss. Battles do. Territory held. Just how many major battles did the US lose in Vietnam? What major headquaters were surerendured to the North? You tell me. If you think the US military lost just when did the US surrender? You tell me. But you won't be able to. Because it never happened. The policy of the US did lose. Resoundlingy. That's for sure. There are some excellent post by Raven on that subject. Myself and Jeff also.

Of course the US out spent the North Vietnamese during the war.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

But what i'm saying is this: US military was much stronger than north vietnam, from the start. Way more planes/ships/soldiers. No one in the world, especially not US expected the military losses to be what they ended up being. Is it a lesser victory if you lose 500 planes to destroy 300 enemy planes than if you lose planes 1 for 1? If so, when does the number cross the line where you can't talk about victory but of a defeat? From my first entry i have been talking about a pyrric victory. US suffered a political defeat but even its military 'non-loss' was very, very costly and ultimately a pointless waste.

If you send a force to do a job, it can be victorious only if it does that job. If somehow US could have looked into future and known it'd have to retreat, then it'd have been better they didn't send even one soldier to vietnam. But they did. They sent tons, and huge numbers of equipment and those all died/were lost in vain. It was more or less a pure waste, because of the political decision to retreat.

Especially because it is clear it was a political defeat and all we've got left is military aspect, quantifying the gains/losses is important. And when you do that, when you quantify the american losses versus north vietnamese losses, US is defeated. If by holding the area and never techincally losing a battle US had gained something in the long term - then yeah, it'd be worth something. But because of ultimately losing the area due to politics, we're left with just numbers vs numbers. And then, what good is it temporarely holding an area if you suffered bigger losses than the enemy in order to hold the area in the first place? Bragging rights? I'd say north vietnam had more to brag about bringing down so many US aircraft.

So yes, US military didn't lose. but its non-loss (not to say victory) was a VERY pyrric one.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

Totoro sez..""So yes, US military didn't lose. but its non-loss (not to say victory) was a VERY pyrric one""

100% correct. Thank you!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

Totoro said:
And when you do that, when you quantify the american losses versus north vietnamese losses, US is defeated.

Sorry, I do not buy that. If that were so, there would have been no reason for the NVA to come to the peace table in 1972. And yet they did.

Why did they, then? Because they were being abjectly defeated militarily at the time and knew they had to. Two years later, after rearming and reprovisioning without constant US attacks, they invaded and won when the US was no longer there.

The price paid in lives and loss of equipment (as related to the ability to keep on fighting a war) were completely lopsided in terms of US vs NVA and VC. The other side (NVA and VC) lost a LOT more.

The US lost the political will and therefore simply left.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

I'm sorry, I do not buy that. If you, after 10 years of pain and suffering, lives lost and billions spent, finally get a chance to win since you finally managed to exhaust your enemy, then you don't just 'lose' political will. If anything, that'd strengthen it and give it another boost of energy for a last push to destroy the enemy. It is my opinion that US saw no end to losses for no clear gain, after 10 years of trying, and decided to bite the bullet and cut its lossses.

North vietnamese were coming to the peace table years before 1972. The only difference in '72 was that US was already lowering the numbers of its forces by then and north vietnam saw it was about to retreat. So it lied and said 'sure, we wont attack'. Yet they did, in two years time like you said. (large scale offensive operations need much more preparation that defending from US attacks)

War policy is made according to your ability to wage war. And there is where the failure was. First the US intelligence, in opening stages, where it underestimated north vietnams strength to wage the war and it underestimated the extent of russian help. But then even us military itself just consistently failed, years after years, to make significant blows to NV, at the whole time suffering far greater losses it predicted, let alone what US govt was told to predict. And no, i don't believe US military could have put more forces to the fight, short of ww2 scale mobilisation which was impossible/impractical for obvious reasons.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

well, thats how sun-tzu thought the best way to win, not by force, but to destroy you enemies heart.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

North vietnamese were coming to the peace table years before 1972. The only difference in '72 was that US was already lowering the numbers of its forces by then and north vietnam saw it was about to retreat. So it lied and said 'sure, we wont attack'. Yet they did, in two years time like you said. (large scale offensive operations need much more preparation that defending from US attacks)

The Paris peace talks started in '68 true enough. But about the first year or so was spent trying to decide the shape and size of the table used for the discussions.

The US government was tired of the war. Us populace was also. Anti war protest at home in the US were ongoing. Years before Pres. Nixon decided to implement "Vietnamzation" of the war. That is giving S. Vietnamese forces more of the brunt of the fighting.

In my opinion to force the North into some real peace negoiations the US launched Operation Linebacker II. And nearly bombed N.Vietnam into oblivion. This article does not mention it but the USN had six CVA's off the coast of the North flying around the clock missions over N. Vietnam bombing anything and everything.. In the wake of these attacks the North decided to "negoiate"(save it's ass) with the US and S. Vietnamese. As Totoro posted so well..they lied. They had no intention of honoring the agreement.

Never heard of Operation Linebacker II??? Check it out.

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Operation Linebacker II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Note: The term "Christmas Day Bombings" is misleading. Operation Linebacker II began on December 18 and ended on December 29, but sorties were only flown on 11 of these days; bombing was halted on Christmas.

The Christmas Day Bombings in late December, 1972, codenamed Operation Linebacker II, were the heaviest bomber strikes of the Vietnam War, ordered by US President Nixon against North Vietnamese Army forces in North Vietnam and Laos.

Some 200 American B-52s armed with 750-pound unguided bombs launched airstrikes against Hanoi and Haiphong with devastating results. The North Vietnamese fired most, if not all, of their SAM missiles and 15 Air Force B-52s were shot down in the operation. Privately, the administration knew that the Christmas Bombings could not continue indefinitely.

The war was a legacy Nixon had inherited from his three immediate predecessors, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. Nixon had previously tried to "end US involvement in Vietnam," but saw the government of South Vietnam as uninterested in peace and taking the US defense forces for granted. The escalated bombing attacks were to serve as a demonstration of the destructiveness of the war, in the hopes of forcing the South Vietnamese government back to peace talks with North Vietnam.

The bombings also were protested around the world, as people began to pressure their respective governments to officially condemn them. The United Kingdom and Italy did so, but other European countries maintained their silence. Some elements in the Western media were alleged to have misreported the extent of damage done in Hanoi and Haiphong; thus, contributing to the anti-war unrest.

Nixon claimed that the bombings were successful in the short term, and the Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending US involvement in Vietnam and completing the so-called "Vietnamization" of the war. Hanoi maintained that the bombings did not influence their peace decision. There are two different opinions about the real effect of the bombings on the government of North Vietnam:

Some believe that the North Vietnamese were afraid of an even larger air campaign against North Vietnam's dikes or even the use of nuclear weapons.
Others believe that China would have tolerated neither nuclear attacks nor American ground forces in North Vietnam without entering the war against the United States. Avoiding conflict with China was an important goal of the American government. Indeed, Nixon's nuclear threats were just posturing. He called it the madman theory, saying "I want the North Vietnamese to believe I've reached the point where I might do anything to stop the war."
The campaign was marked by top-down planning from Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters, Omaha, Nebraska. SAC's initial plans had all B-52s approaching Hanoi in three discrete waves per night, using identical approach paths at the same altitude. Once planes had dropped their bombs, they were to execute what SAC called "post-target turns" to the west. These turns had two unfortunate effects for the B-52s:

The B-52s would be turning into a strong headwind, slowing their ground speed by 100 knots (185 km/h) and prolonging their stay in the target area;
The turn would point the emitter antennas for the B-52s' electronic warfare (EW) systems away from the radars they were attempting to jam, as well as showing the largest radar cross-section to the (now unjammed) radars.
Additionally, the aircraft employed had significantly different EW capabilities; the B-52G carried fewer jammers and put out significantly less power than the B-52Ds.

The combination of stereotyped tactics, degraded EW systems, and limited jamming capacity led to the loss of five aircraft on night three (20 December 1972). The commander of the B-52 wing at U-Tapao, Thailand sent a message to SAC headquarters that sharply criticized SAC's tactics and control of the operation. SAC turned planning over to 8th Air Force headquarters on Guam, then ensured that the U-Tapao commander was not mentioned in the official history of the operation.

On December 26, 1972, the new tactics came into play: instead of multiple waves, all bombers would be in and out of the Hanoi area within 20 minutes, and would approach Hanoi from multiple directions. The steep post-target turns were eliminated. The North Vietnamese air defense system, though still capable, was overwhelmed by the number of aircraft to track in a short period of time and a dense blanket of chaff that was laid down by 7th Air Force fighter-bombers.

The peace talks between North and South Vietnam would dissolve. The NVA secured South Vietnam in 1975, unifying Vietnam under communist rule.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

bd popeye said:
The Paris peace talks started in '68 true enough. But about the first year or so was spent trying to decide the shape and size of the table used for the discussions. In my opinion to force the North into some real peace negoiations the US launched Operation Linebacker II. And nearly bombed N.Vietnam into oblivion. In the wake of these attacks the North decided to "negoiate"(save it's ass) with the US and S. Vietnamese. As Totoro posted so well..they lied. They had no intention of honoring the agreement.

Well stated PopEye.

I hope this thread can now get back to what it was intended...a discussion of the US Navy reserve fleet in general, and in Bremerton specifically.
 
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