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The_Zergling said:

How the hell did they get a 108:0 kill ratio?

I'm not sure how many missiles an F-22 can carry, but an educated guess would put it around 8 or so, 4 AMRAAMs and 4 Sidewinders (Assuming no external hardpoints, as that would pretty much be redundant).

To get a kill ratio this high, each and every single one of the 4 AMRAAMs carried by the F-22s would have to hit their targets, taking down 48 aircraft. Then they'd have to get closer in order to get into Sidewinder range, which would obviously be to the advantage of the simulated aggressor aircraft. At least within 5 miles or so they have a chance. Now assuming all the Sidewinders hit, that's another 48 kills, for a total of 96.

The F-22s would have to return to base to re-arm and refuel (unless they're using their cannons), and I find it even harder to believe that the "Red" force wouldn't be able to launch even a single succesful attack on their airfield...

Or the Air Force is using a different calculating system than me. It's possible that they got the ratio from many different sorties, which would still be technically possible as long as they don't lose a single F-22...

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A 108: 0 kill ratio?

Translation..The "Red" forces never had a chance. As I have said before War Games(Excersises) are just that games....So no telling what sort of games were played to tip the numbers in favor or against the Raptor.

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walter said:

i thought it was clear that the ratio is for the entire exercise, not a single sortie. That means in all engagemants (no word on BVR or WVR) the f-22 won them all.



I have an idea of what could have tipped the exercises int eh raptor's favor: stealth, better maneouverability, superior radar ...

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Washington and Rome are finalizing a deal that will see Italy garner the prize of a European final-assembly line for the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

London, meanwhile, is focusing on securing "operational sovereignty" of the aircraft and, possibly, a maintenance center for European jets.

While the U.K. is the largest financial contributor to the single-engine fighter program outside of the U.S., securing final assembly and checkout has not been a priority for the British government. Instead, it is arguing for the ability to independently support and upgrade the F-35.

Italy's air chief was in Washington last week to iron out details of an agreement. Alenia Aeronautica, which is already a second-source supplier of F-35 wings, will execute the assembly work near Cameri in the northern part of the country. A military airfield, the site satisfies U.S. security concerns that have been the subject of extensive negotiations, says Giuseppe Giordo, president and CEO of Alenia North America. Final assembly of all European F-35s, except those of the British, will take place there, he says.

Italians 'very satisfied'

A few "technical qualifications" remain for Italy, but the U.S.-based F-35 program office says those final details are on track for a final agreement soon. Giordo says the facility will not add cost to the price of European F-35s.

Following a June 12 meeting with Italian air force chief Lt. Gen. Leonardo Tricarico, U.S. Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne says the Italians are "very satisfied with the return they are getting on their investment." Besides the U.S. Air Force, Italy is the only other nation expected to buy multiple F-35 variants. Rome is interested in both the conventional takeoff-and-landing version that will be used by the Air Force as well as the short-takeoff-and-landing (STOVL) version primarily designed for the U.S. Marine Corps. Lockheed Martin is also developing a carrier variant for use at sea.

The final assembly deal is another bridge between the defense industries of Italy and the U.S. Last year, a Lockheed Martin team was chosen over incumbent U.S. contractor Sikorsky to supply an AgustaWestland-designed helicopter to transport the president.

"The U.S. administration has realized that Italian products are very, very competitive products," Giordo says. "During last year, the U.S. industry and U.S. administration realized that we can really contribute."

The U.K.'s BAE Systems, which is a partner on Lockheed Martin's JSF team, has been viewed as a front-runner for the final assembly facility. BAE, as an industry team member, will produce the aft fuselage section for all JSFs.

While BAE has been pushing for final assembly, its efforts have not been reflected by the British government's priorities on the program.

Wynne says the U.K., the U.S.'s closest ally, is "satisfied" with what he calls an "operational accommodation," which is being offered in preference to an assembly facility there.

While this may satisfy the British government, it will likely come as a disappointment to industry, and BAE in particular. "There is a difference between what the industry wanted and what the government wanted," Wynne says.

Negotiations intensifying

Instead, London has focused on operational and support issues. The U.S. is drawing up an operational cooperation document that will outline the particulars on this point. One operational issue with which the U.S. has had extensive experience is how to employ stealth most effectively, using a combination of mission planning and tactics in concert with the aircraft's inherent low-observable design to diminish exposure to threats.

"We will satisfy them from an operational standpoint to make sure that our pilots and their pilots know exactly what the aircraft can do," Wynne says. "The technology transfer, I think, is pilot to pilot."

Negotiations are intensifying with the other JSF partners, Canada, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Denmark and Norway, who have all pledged varying contributions to JSF's design and demonstration phase. Production agreements must be in place by year-end. The U.S. plans to buy 2,443 F-35s, including more than 1,700 for the Air Force.

The U.K. may eventually buy up to 150, although an initial order for around 80 is possible. These will replace the Harrier GR9 in the carrier strike-role beginning around 2015.

The British government wants to secure a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the U.K., with the site likely to be at RAF Lossiemouth in northern Scotland. This will also be the first base for the U.K. aircraft.

Norway shakiest

Perhaps the shakiest of the remaining partners is Norway, says Wynne. Norway is also considering the Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale as possible candidates to replace its Lockheed Martin F-16s. A final decision is not expected until 2008.

The key element in solidifying an industrial partnership on JSF is value, and industry officials say Norway's offer for work is pricey.

Turkey, meanwhile, is considering $5 billion in work for Turkish manufacturers from Eurofighter as a concession if the nation opts for the Typhoon to modernize its forces. It is uncertain whether Turkey will decide to go with a single fleet of F-35s or a two-type fleet to include the Typhoon. Wynne suggests that Turkey is using the Eurofighter deal as a hard bargaining chip with the U.S. "I get the sense that they are positively negotiating. If Eurofighter is making a deal, it is probably a bit of a 'but.'"

Washington is maintaining a cautious approach with Israel, which has expressed interest in procuring the fighter but is not one of the contributing development partners. While Israel is hoping for its own production facility, Wynne opines it is "not in the economic interest" of Israel to set up its own facility to supply simply its own air force. "We are going to need some time before we are comfortable letting anyone do the very intricate or detailed" work, Wynne says.

Already, the massive program has suffered some developmental setbacks. Excessive weight on the STOVL variant contributed to a program delay and significant cost overrun. More recently, officials are experiencing overheating problems with the F135 Pratt & Whitney engine for the STOVL variant. A General Electric/Rolls-Royce team has also had some testing problems with its F136 alternate JSF engine, which the Pentagon recently terminated due to budget pressures. Wynne was unfamiliar with the recent F135 testing problems, but said that an alternate engine is desirable to ensure reliability of the fleet in the event of a failure and to encourage industrial competition.

Valuable resource

"The Air Force has agreed that the reliability statistics on the last few engines and the maturity curve that they all follow has mitigated our concern about reliability," Wynne says. "It appears that over the life of the program the competition payback may not overcome the dual-logistics" cost.

Lockheed Martin's experience designing the twin-engine, stealthy F-22 for the Air Force is a valuable resource for the Pentagon to draw on to avoid similar problems in JSF's development, Wynne says. He argues that the Senate must restore $1.2 billion that it proposes to pull from the program.

Senators argue that the cut will allow for needed risk reduction in advance of a ramp-up in procurement. They also added $400 million to the program to fund either an alternate engine or a second-source supplier for the existing JSF engine.

One Senate aide said as many as 500 F-35s would have been purchased in early production lots prior to the JSF completing initial operational testing and evaluation, opening up the program to the excessive risk.

"What I want to make sure is that we keep that production work force viable within the Fort Worth complex and throughout the suppliers," Wynne says. "I worry only that I get enough money so that I'm not essentially restarting at some level my supplier work."

As lawmakers prepare a conference to hash out the final fiscal 2007 budget, the Pentagon is now in the early stages of crafting its fiscal 2008 spending request. Wynne says fiscal 2008 "could be the crisping up of the story for the Air Force, the Navy and the Marine Corps" procurement plans for the F-35.

The Air Force is considering a slower buy-rate. "The more near-term thing that would concern us is simply the rate of accession more than the number," Wynne says. The Air Force is currently budgeted to purchase about 110 aircraft per month, and the service is considering a smaller annual buy. The first flight of the CTOL F-35 is scheduled for October, a slight slip from earlier plans for an August demonstration.

As JSF development continues, the Air Force is touting early results from the F-22's involvement in recent combat exercises. The Air Force claims the aircraft achieved an "unprecedented" kill ratio of 108:0 during the joint Northern Edge exercise, which concluded last week in Alaska. Twelve F-22s deployed for the exercise, which used F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s to simulate Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30 Flankers as adversaries.

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