US Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is a data/analysis post:





Quotations are for notification only. I started this comment as a reply in the LCS thread but decided that it fits here better but the original recipients might find it useful as well.

Some time ago I made a map that could be useful for any discussions about naval logistics and any protracted conflict between the US and China regardless of intensity and form.

It is a simplified diagram displaying transit lines between US bases and associated transit times at speeds of 14, 21 and 28 knots. Times are displayed for distances measured with lines between bases. Resolution is poor but it still legible at full size (1600x738)

View attachment 76536

As you can see even at 28 knots - which is only achievable as march speed to nuclear-powered ships and large conventional warships at maximum power - transit from Guam to Okinawa takes 38 hours (~1,5 days). From Darwin to the travel takes over 2,5 days at 28 knots if it crosses internal waters of Indonesia. At 28 kts it takes 8,5 days from San Diego to Okinawa. At 21 kts it's over 11 days and at 14 kts it's 17 days.

Logistical ships have maximum speeds of around 21 knots and cargo ships have even lower speeds - use 14kts for reference. Size of the vessel also corresponds with its seaworthiness and its ability to travel at greater speeds in higher (rougher) sea states.

The next map is a simplified illustration of ranges of air defenses - maximum range of missiles and maximum combat radius of fighter aircraft.

For China I included also a tentative radius of JH-7A and extended it by 400km (maximum range of YJ-12). You can use those ranges to imagine other systems. Remember that maximum range of missiles is theoretical - it is calculated against non-maneuvering targets flying at low altitude, at the end of the ballistic curve. The small circle with a cross for US & allied forces is the radius of 50km - approximately indicative of the range of ESSM or HQ-16 systems.

View attachment 76537

On the second map I also included limits of territorial waters of Philippines and Indonesia (grey line) which helps to explain why Australian influence is active in provinces of Papua and West Papua - which would allow direct transit north. The US will want to leverage destabilization of those provinces against Indonesian cooperation against China.

Last is the table listing ship numbers in categories included in the 30-year shipbuilding plan published in December 2020 which is indicative of the natural and inertial trend of USN fleet change. Large Surface Combatatns includes cruisers and destroyers. Small Surface Combatant includes LCS and frigates. Amphibious warfare ships includes proposed Light Amphibious Warship (LAW). The table includes only crewed ships.

View attachment 76535

Additional important information based on plans current on Dec '20:
  • half of USN Ticonderoga-class cruisers (11 of 22) will be put in reserve by 2026 restricting the availability of command ships for task force escorts (CVN and LHA/LHD) since no Arleigh Burke-class variant has room for command facilities. The ships will be returned to service after 10 years to extend CG availability by 10 years without costly refits
  • first USN Constellation-class frigate will enter service in 2026
  • first RAN Hunter-class frigate (Type 26) will enter service in 2031
  • only the 8 AEGIS destroyers of JMSDF have Standard missiles, the other 34 surface combatants are currently not able to use them and are primarily ASW ships
  • new JMSDF Mogami-class frigate of which 4 are to enter service by 2023 has 2 Mk.41 with 16 cells and uses Type 03 SAM as medium-range missile.

I didn't realize the JH-7A carries YJ-12. I always thought that this job is for the H-6, which is even longer ranged.

The H-6 might be using an even longer ranged ASBM later on.

The other 34 surface combatants of the JMSDF uses ESSM, but their Mk. 41s should still make Standards a viable option.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
That's because to the best of our knowledge, JH-7/A cannot carry YJ-12.
Well, it's got a 9 ton payload capacity and an upper estimate of the YJ-12's weight is 2.5 tons. Any reason why it can't carry one along the centerline or two at the innermost wing root hardpoints? For that matter, couldn't the J-16 and J-15 do the same?

I've been thinking as well that as far as we know the H-6K carries 4 YJ-12s (we speculate 6 but we've never seen the full loadout). Could an H-6K carry 4 or so more internally on a rotary launcher?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well, it's got a 9 ton payload capacity and an upper estimate for the weight of the YJ-12 is 2.5 tons. Any reason why it can't carry at least one along the centerline or two at the innermost wing root hardpoints? For that matter, couldn't the J-16 and J-15 do the same?

In general, the ability of an aircraft to physically carry XYZ weapon depends on whether the weapons station itself has the structural ability to carry the mass of the payload.... also, whether there is sufficient physical clearance at the given weapons station for the weapon to be carried.
In the case of JH-7/A, I would be surprised if any individual weapons station had the clearance to carry 2.5 tons, and I am doubtful if any of the weapons stations has the clearance to carry a YJ-12 either.
.... That said, the above is all for posterity's sake -- let's remember how we go about PLA watching, that we go by credible rumours first, then by evidence/pictures.
And we have had no rumours of JH-7/A being able to carry YJ-12 for many years. In fact, the idea of JH-7/A being able to carry YJ-12 only floated around when the true size of YJ-12 was not known.

So no, I don't think there's any reasonable basis for us, at this stage to entertain the idea of JH-7/A carrying YJ-12s, and certainly shouldn't be treated as an "in service capability" for the purposes of modelling a conflict.


I'm not sure about whether J-16/J-15 can carry YJ-12s. If they can, I can't expect them to carry 1 or 2.


I've been thinking as well that as far as we know H-6K carry 4 YJ-12s (we speculate 6 but we've never seen the full loadout). Could an H-6K carry 4 or so more internally on a rotary launcher?

Lol I don't even think a B-1's rotary launcher has the volume to carry four YJ-12s internally.

I believe the H-6K/J/N family carries four YJ-12s total, one each on the four inner wingtip stations
The two outer wingtip stations can only carry YJ-83 family weapons or KD-20 -- I suspect the outer wingtip station is limited by the mass of the payload it can carry, and KD-20 is probably the limit (YJ-12 being likely at least 1 ton heavier than KD-20). What would be somewhat interesting to me, is whether the H-6K/J/N family can carry four YJ-12s and two KD-20s (KD-20s on the wingtip pylon) but that's more for academic interest.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member

I am guessing the point of these ships is to be very basic and modular. So you can build ten or whatever to go along with couple of manned frigates/destroyers/cruisers and arm them with anti-ship missiles, jamming equipment, lasers, etc? So they wont be autonomous in the sense that you send them out to fight a naval war on their own, but accompany a manned group to extend the range, attack and defense options as well as soak up incoming enemy missiles?
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
According to the FY22 long-term shipbuilding plan by the USN they'll have up to 63-65 destroyers.
4KYJ4Y2DFREDXB4GMRNE52UCZU.png


Minus 3 Zumwalts that is around 60 Arleigh Burkes which is even less than they have today. (not to mention the loss of 20+ Ticos)


Is it just me or are things not looking that good for USN dominance over the next 30 years?

I have wondered if the Biden administration will push a massive military investment much like their infrastructure (social and traditional) in the coming years. I don't have a specific figure, but maybe they will aim to shore up votes on the other side with a big military investment. For example, we are going to spend an extra 500 billion over the next six years on procurement or whatever.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
To answer questions about past and future of USN and the relationship between fleet size and budget - data from publications by Congressional Research Service, Department of the Navy and my own work from various sources.

SDF has limit of images per post so I combined the tables and graphs together topically. Apologies for the size of the images but smaller would not be legible.

1. Fleet size
Source: Congressional Research Service
  • Top left and bottom left is a compilation of fleet structure plans from 1980 to 2015
  • Top right is total number of "battle force" which includes combat ships and select number of logistical and auxiliary vessels. The composition of "battle force" changes with time but not in any major way
  • Bottom right is the number of new ships commissioned every year between 1982 and 2024

1280px_VAR_USN_1.jpg

Compare fleet structure plans with ship levels in historic tables below.

2. Historic and projected ship levels
Source: Department of the Navy
Projected levels: per the 30-year shipbuilding plan from December 2020
Historic:
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1280px_VAR_USN_2.jpg

Large Surface Combatant - CG and DDG. Small Surface Combatant - LCS and FFG. Amphibious ships include LAW (Light Amphibious Warship).

No significant increase in SSN numbers until 2035(!) with minimum in 2026 (!). No significant increase in small surface combatants, amphibious ships, logistical ships until 2032.

3. Navy fleet and aviation inventory and procurement
Source: DoN Budget Office
  • Top left inventory of ships included in "battle force"
  • Bottom left approved and projected funding for ship procurement 2018-2026
  • Top right inventory of Primary Active aircraft under DoN.
  • Bottom right aircraft procurement 2019-2024

1280px_VAR_USN_3.jpg

The procurement data above refers to ordered, not commissioned, ships. It also shows that USN maintains a stable output of 2 SSNs and DDGs per annum on average. The only greater number comes from new FFGs of which 20 are to be built by 2030. Absolute priority is given to the new SSBN and Columbias will largely block any other major shipbuilding program - including increase in SSNs - until the end of this decade.

Note the size of aviation - it is a problem as much as it is an asset depending on the circumstances. More below:


4. Details of 2020 DoN Budget
Source: DoN Budget Office

1280px_VAR_USN_4.jpg
The cost levels associated with naval aviation are so large that any expansion in naval assets is made impossible. Any cut to existing fleet of capital ships disables costly aviation assets which constitute primary offensive force of USN. Most operational flexibility in USN is provided by aviation which requires capital assets with escorts. Because of that USN is "big guns or nothing" kind of navy and that means it is limited in its options - especially as money becomes a problem.

5. Historic economic trends enabling naval power projection
Source: Wikipedia, World Bank, DoN Budget Office, DoN Board of Inspection and Survey (InSurv)
  • Top - table global currency reserve composition
  • Below - 1960-2020 trendline comparing US and PRC military spending in relation to GDP
  • Bottom left - funding for procurement 2022-2026
  • Bottom right - scores by InSurv for 2014-2019 and projected sustainment costs for 2022-2051

1280px_VAR_USN_5.jpg
Here I direct your attention to the topmost table and the historic ship levels in image 2. During WW2 the production of ships was financed by loans which were paid off through monetary expansion under Bretton Woods system (1944-1971) with US dollar as the only gold-denominated currency. This combined with higher military spending (see graph) allowed to finance major armament programs like "41 for freedom" or nuclear submarine and carrier fleets - on top of the Vietnam War. However the financial crash resulting from the collapse of Bretton Woods and floating of the US dollar forced a 50% cut in military spending. This is where you can see the capital flight toward German Mark and Japanese Yen as well as the slow resurgence of European financial markets. Less demand for USD means less purchasing power from newly printed money.

Reagan's buildup and "countering Soviets" was directed not against the USSR but against the Western European nations - much like currently the US is the main destabilizing force in the EU to weaken the bloc and the Euro. Reagan's expansion funded by deficit spending (with tax cuts!) increased tension , disrupted energy trade between Europe and USSR and forced agreements for "stabilizing" of financial markets which aimed at propping up of USD. In 1990 US Dollar constituted only 47% of global reserves and European financial markets provided 35% reserves. Along with 9,5% from Japan it essentially matched US position. Compare it with 1975. (And while you're at it see when exactly Britain loses its status - when it's out of "special" money from BW)

The Gulf War and Iraq wars were aimed at enforcing the "petrodollar" - a system of de facto oil standard which used established energy markets denominated in USD as sink for USD demand. The US destabilized the Middle East and told every country that either you maintain USD-only trade or you're on your own in the world's most unstable (thanks to the US) region. This blackmail worked (and countries that didn't agree were invaded in 2003 and 2011) and allowed for continuing monetary expansion until 2008 but the losses of naval strength from the cuts in the 70s and 90s could not be recouped. You can see yourself that even with the current unsustainable level of military spending the USN is barely keeping even with declining readines (InSurv) and ship levels.

While deficit spending in the 80s which increased military expenditures modernized the fleet the deficit spending in the 2000s was wasted on wars.

Without money there is no navy. Without navy the sun sets over the empire rather quickly.

Replies:

The thing which changed everything happened just several years ago - we're talking about China launched its crazy ship printer - and, as fast as it prints ships, relative naval strength won't change as fast, so Burkes aren't a problem right now.

China's rapid buildup concentrates primarily on low-end platforms - Type 056/A and Type 054A. Those are not ships intended to counter Burkes which serve their roles as carrier and ESG escorts and BMD platforms. The gap in USN capabilities that PLAN can exploit is not among the high-end high-capability platforms but among the low-end low-intensity assets intended for different missions and different strategies.

This is why USMC moved to Battle Force 2030 and dispersed force with anti-ship missiles. USN doesn't have ships to counter PLAN so it uses Marines. Except that Marines are useful in war. For peace and "grey zone" you need ships at sea. That's a strategic blindspot.

I didn't realize the JH-7A carries YJ-12. I always thought that this job is for the H-6, which is even longer ranged.

Neither did I. That's an error. Well spotted.

I made the map over eight months ago so I can't remember for sure but I probably wanted to demonstrate that even shorter-ranged aircraft than H-6 have sufficient range and as a result made a non-existent match. Apologies for the confusion.

I haven't seen any photo images of JH-7A with YJ-12 apart from the one which is obviously a fake. It should be possible to carry two such missiles on internal wing pylons as YJ-12 was demonstrated in similar positions on J-15 but 4,8t out of 9t of maximum payload is a bad configuration. JH-7A will be used against other targets while H-6 can handle YJ-12 with greater ease and in greater numbers.

The other 34 surface combatants of the JMSDF uses ESSM, but their Mk. 41s should still make Standards a viable option.

Asahi and Akizuki classes have FCS-3 AESA radar which is currently not integrated with the SM-2MR or even SM-6. Older classes can't integrate Standards.

Mogami frigate is integrated with Type 003 indigenous MRAD missile and they are planned as replacement for all the older destroyers so it doesn't seem likely that Japan will want to pay for integration of Standard missiles when they have their own solution as well as newer ships in production.
 
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