NGAD is an unknown but the US is far more like China than it is like India. If they hint at something, it's probably flying around at the very least. Hardly anything of value is ever revealed in whole until it is operational. F-35 is a joint multinational project so public saw a greater depth of info sooner.
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US Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter tphuang
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NGAD is an unknown but the US is far more like China than it is like India. If they hint at something, it's probably flying around at the very least. Hardly anything of value is ever revealed in whole until it is operational. F-35 is a joint multinational project so public saw a greater depth of info sooner.
Probably you are right. But i have different opinion regarding efficiency of US after observing them for quite a while. They might not be India, but i personally dont count them to be far off. The ratio of amount of resources they consume v/s the output they give is low. F-22 is an example. Stealthy super fighter that disappeared from production line altogether. NGAD according to them is system of system thats gonna integrate manned & unmanned system together. Its not a single fighter program, but digital structural plan which of course have a sixth generation platform & according to them will operate with F22s & F35s, also with other unmanned platforms such as Valkyrie.NGAD is an unknown but the US is far more like China than it is like India. If they hint at something, it's probably flying around at the very least. Hardly anything of value is ever revealed in whole until it is operational. F-35 is a joint multinational project so public saw a greater depth of info sooner.
Probably you are right. But i have different opinion regarding efficiency of US after observing them for quite a while. They might not be India, but i personally dont count them to be far off. The ratio of amount of resources they consume v/s the output they give is low. F-22 is an example. Stealthy super fighter that disappeared from production line altogether. NGAD according to them is system of system thats gonna integrate manned & unmanned system together. Its not a single fighter program, but digital structural plan which of course have a sixth generation platform & according to them will operate with F22s & F35s, also with other unmanned platforms such as Valkyrie.
They stopped F-22 production at just below 200 units not because of resources required. The high cost is partly due to development costs being what they are. Here you can make those arguments but that stuff was the leading edge of the leading edge back in the 1990s and 2000s. The high procurement costs are due to production scale.
Why did they cut production? Because they were led to believe that 1. there is no great enough "threat" that requires a great deal of Raptors like F-15 and F-16. It is an expensive fighter regardless and it's the special forces of the fighter fleet. It was never intended to become the mainstay workhorse of the USAF that role belongs to the F-35 and was long planned that way. 2. There was the belief that funds saved can and would be redirected to developing future generation fighters beyond F-22/F-35 combo. Rather than investing heavily into it while there was seemingly no peer even close, when such a peer emerges e.g. J-20, then they'd be well on their way towards next generation and have well understood the capabilities of 5th gen beyond what anyone else has. It isn't necessarily a poor decision. Particularly when I suspect they knew they wanted 6th gen to include incredible range. Back then, they already know that variable cycle engines were being developed and would likely be ready around this time. Hundreds and hundreds of Raptors with relatively limited ranges isn't going to be that useful for engaging China. Their bases are too far out, it isn't carrier capable, airfields within range can be attacked.
I suspect they always knew they required NGAD/PCA back in the 1990s. Definitely by the time when they capped F-22 production. Late 2000s they also knew how far along ADVENT was and superior technology was available for 6th gen to revolutionise the digital aspect while engines, materials, airframes etc were ready to provide the range they want. F-22 and F-35 were remnants of the last days of the Cold War. Even if none this is accurate or true, China intentional leaked intel that the new fighter they were working on back in early 2010s (talks about J-xy) was a twin engined J-10, basically at best a Eurofighter like aircraft and high profile individuals strongly condemned fanboys for suggesting China was capable of designing and manufacturing a VLO fighter, convincing the Americans that there will be no F-22 equivalent for decades and decades which ended up not being the case.
Agreed. F-35 and F-22 are not like a very big threat to China due to their low rangeThey stopped F-22 production at just below 200 units not because of resources required. The high cost is partly due to development costs being what they are. Here you can make those arguments but that stuff was the leading edge of the leading edge back in the 1990s and 2000s. The high procurement costs are due to production scale.
Why did they cut production? Because they were led to believe that 1. there is no great enough "threat" that requires a great deal of Raptors like F-15 and F-16. It is an expensive fighter regardless and it's the special forces of the fighter fleet. It was never intended to become the mainstay workhorse of the USAF that role belongs to the F-35 and was long planned that way. 2. There was the belief that funds saved can and would be redirected to developing future generation fighters beyond F-22/F-35 combo. Rather than investing heavily into it while there was seemingly no peer even close, when such a peer emerges e.g. J-20, then they'd be well on their way towards next generation and have well understood the capabilities of 5th gen beyond what anyone else has. It isn't necessarily a poor decision. Particularly when I suspect they knew they wanted 6th gen to include incredible range. Back then, they already know that variable cycle engines were being developed and would likely be ready around this time. Hundreds and hundreds of Raptors with relatively limited ranges isn't going to be that useful for engaging China. Their bases are too far out, it isn't carrier capable, airfields within range can be attacked.
I suspect they always knew they required NGAD/PCA back in the 1990s. Definitely by the time when they capped F-22 production. Late 2000s they also knew how far along ADVENT was and superior technology was available for 6th gen to revolutionise the digital aspect while engines, materials, airframes etc were ready to provide the range they want. F-22 and F-35 were remnants of the last days of the Cold War. Even if none this is accurate or true, China intentional leaked intel that the new fighter they were working on back in early 2010s (talks about J-xy) was a twin engined J-10, basically at best a Eurofighter like aircraft and high profile individuals strongly condemned fanboys for suggesting China was capable of designing and manufacturing a VLO fighter, convincing the Americans that there will be no F-22 equivalent for decades and decades which ended up not being the case.
Now, the NGAD with the ADVENT engines, oh boy is that going to be fun...
The US Airflrce is now single-mindedly focused on the NGAD for a good reason. They may finally be able to start seriously contesting with China near its shores
I agree. High cost is what led them to scrap.They stopped F-22 production at just below 200 units not because of resources required. The high cost is partly due to development costs being what they are. Here you can make those arguments but that stuff was the leading edge of the leading edge back in the 1990s and 2000s. The high procurement costs are due to production scale.
My question is
How do you undertake a program so ambitious without enough intel based groundwork only to scrap it after manufacturing 200 units? This program was overly ambitious program & out of time, dont you agree? First it was leading of leading edge according to you in 1990. Then they "were led to believe" that it didn't need such a program because there "wasn't a threat". I see severe efficiency issue there.
Cost is a relative word. Money is government authorized printed paper that is used as means to buy & sell goods, which leads to the question of efficiency of resource management.
US has been over using it's money printing capability to fund such out of time program. How many B2 they have?
US has been trying to show off much more than it has capability. I agree with some of the programs they have been ahead,specially in jet engines. But people wre trying to make us believe that US were about to shoot nuke to Russia from their moon base or was about to shoot down russian ICBMs with their laser defense system was straight out of movie.
NGAD has nothing to do with ADVENT engines.Agreed. F-35 and F-22 are not like a very big threat to China due to their low range
Now, the NGAD with the ADVENT engines, oh boy is that going to be fun...
The US Airflrce is now single-mindedly focused on the NGAD for a good reason. They may finally be able to start seriously contesting with China near its shores
This platform makes some good analysis specially the guy name tyler.
NGAD is network based integrated approach.
Advent will probably power their 6th generation platform.
As far as NGAD is concerned,even they aren't sure of it's success. I'm much more skeptic.
A network based approach requires high level of integration, data fusion. Its hard, very hard, very very hard to transform a traditional air force depending on engines,missiles, air frames to an air force capable of performing in network based environment that will integrate both manned & unmanned aircraft. I dont see US having much hold over that domain. May be they can try traditional route, as increase the range of fighters by using newer engines & missiles, but digital environment is different level altogether i simply dont see they are capable of mastering. That's just my opinion.
Advent will probably power their 6th generation platform.
As far as NGAD is concerned,even they aren't sure of it's success. I'm much more skeptic.
There is a thread for the US 6th gen program.
And, fwiw, treat the drive with care. It's not minnie chan, but Rogoway's team builds mountains out of molehills and often has its own weirdness - like tictac - they love to sensationalize.
As for David Axe, let's just say he is perfectly named because he definitely has something to grind.
The drive is okayish, but I certainly agree with you that they often "build mountains out of molehills". However their articles explaining some warfare aspects in-depth are superb.There is a thread for the US 6th gen program.
And, fwiw, treat the drive with care. It's not minnie chan, but Rogoway's team builds mountains out of molehills and often has its own weirdness - like tictac - they love to sensationalize.
As for David Axe, let's just say he is perfectly named because he definitely has something to grind.
The Drive >>> Minnie Chan >> National Interest
Anyway, what I meant to say is that the Air Force is not incompetent and that it has otwn programs which are making good progress
NGAD is just a program to test technologies to use in a 6th generation fighter. It is not a program to build an actual 6th generation fighter.
It is basically similar to a 6th generation version of the Shenyang FC-31 but within a much larger program.
The F-22 was cancelled because of politics. The F-35 program was consuming gargantuan amounts of capital and they diverted F-22 funds to it to try to solve the problems. Because the Soviet Union had collapsed the need to have increased numbers of F-22 aircraft was reduced and China was not at the time considered to be a threat. The F-35 was considered to be the fighter which would bring jobs and export sales. We are in 2021 and they still haven't managed to push the F-35 Block 4 software out of the door. Now they want to rewrite the whole software stack for NGAD? Good luck.
While there were plans for increased range F-22 derivatives once China became a visible threat, like the FB-22, or more agile variants of the F-22, like the X-44 MANTA, both of those were scrapped. The FB-22 was scrapped to increase funding of the Next Generation Bomber program.
As for the F-22 being considered hard to maintain, they had a long time to solve whatever problems it had. It entered service in 2005 a decade and a half after the YF-22 first flew in 1990. Consider that next time you see people joking about the Su-57 being "delayed" or some other rant like that. The Su-57 took 10 years from first prototype (T-50-1) to first production, not 15 years like the F-22.
Now people seem to think these new programs will magically solve the problems of the existing stealth fighter. I think that is bullshit. They will just compound on existing problems. The next fighter is not going to use mature or perfected technology, they are going to basically redesign everything from the bottom up, engines, airframe, software, etc. What makes people think development will be trouble free?
It is basically similar to a 6th generation version of the Shenyang FC-31 but within a much larger program.
The F-22 was cancelled because of politics. The F-35 program was consuming gargantuan amounts of capital and they diverted F-22 funds to it to try to solve the problems. Because the Soviet Union had collapsed the need to have increased numbers of F-22 aircraft was reduced and China was not at the time considered to be a threat. The F-35 was considered to be the fighter which would bring jobs and export sales. We are in 2021 and they still haven't managed to push the F-35 Block 4 software out of the door. Now they want to rewrite the whole software stack for NGAD? Good luck.
While there were plans for increased range F-22 derivatives once China became a visible threat, like the FB-22, or more agile variants of the F-22, like the X-44 MANTA, both of those were scrapped. The FB-22 was scrapped to increase funding of the Next Generation Bomber program.
As for the F-22 being considered hard to maintain, they had a long time to solve whatever problems it had. It entered service in 2005 a decade and a half after the YF-22 first flew in 1990. Consider that next time you see people joking about the Su-57 being "delayed" or some other rant like that. The Su-57 took 10 years from first prototype (T-50-1) to first production, not 15 years like the F-22.
Now people seem to think these new programs will magically solve the problems of the existing stealth fighter. I think that is bullshit. They will just compound on existing problems. The next fighter is not going to use mature or perfected technology, they are going to basically redesign everything from the bottom up, engines, airframe, software, etc. What makes people think development will be trouble free?
The YF-22 was a tech demonstrator, the first prototype F-22 flew in 1997.NGAD is just a program to test technologies to use in a 6th generation fighter. It is not a program to build an actual 6th generation fighter.
It is basically similar to a 6th generation version of the Shenyang FC-31 but within a much larger program.
The F-22 was cancelled because of politics. The F-35 program was consuming gargantuan amounts of capital and they diverted F-22 funds to it to try to solve the problems. Because the Soviet Union had collapsed the need to have increased numbers of F-22 aircraft was reduced and China was not at the time considered to be a threat. The F-35 was considered to be the fighter which would bring jobs and export sales. We are in 2021 and they still haven't managed to push the F-35 Block 4 software out of the door. Now they want to rewrite the whole software stack for NGAD? Good luck.
While there were plans for increased range F-22 derivatives once China became a visible threat, like the FB-22, or more agile variants of the F-22, like the X-44 MANTA, both of those were scrapped. The FB-22 was scrapped to increase funding of the Next Generation Bomber program.
As for the F-22 being considered hard to maintain, they had a long time to solve whatever problems it had. It entered service in 2005 a decade and a half after the YF-22 first flew in 1990. Consider that next time you see people joking about the Su-57 being "delayed" or some other rant like that. The Su-57 took 10 years from first prototype (T-50-1) to first production, not 15 years like the F-22.
Now people seem to think these new programs will magically solve the problems of the existing stealth fighter. I think that is bullshit. They will just compound on existing problems. The next fighter is not going to use mature or perfected technology, they are going to basically redesign everything from the bottom up, engines, airframe, software, etc. What makes people think development will be trouble free?