US Financial Crisis/Bailout, China's Role

Engineer

Major
Let me just say that it never fails to astound me whenever I hear someone uses the "2000 years of history" argument in defense of an all powerful Chinese government. If history has taught you anything, it is that such governments have again and again, without failure, ended in human tragedies after human tragedies.
Strawman!

I don't think any of us here are using the long history of corruption in China to excuse the current corruption situation in China. Rather, we all agree that corruption in China is a big problem. What we... at least I have been saying, is that people have been trying to solve the issue for such a long time that your unicon-system-that-solves-everything will not work.

But what you are having a tough time understanding is that economic freedom is different from political freedom, that the 'western-style' economic freedom has in fact been embraced by the Chinese society at large, and has without dispute, resulted in the best living standards that the Chinese people have ever enjoyed in their long history. All I propose is that we ought to go down this proven road of success even further, so that the rest of the dead weight loss in the system can be cut out faster. Again, in lean times like these, China can't afford to continue feeding the fat pigs at the bureaucracy.
And without dispute the opening of China to western style "free" economy also caused crime to shoot through the roof, corruption included. For example, tainted milk is unimaginable back in Mao's days, land grabs is unimaginable back in those days, officals collude with private business is unimaginable back in those days, and the list goes on. Increase freedom is not the way to solve corruption issues in China.
 

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
The government doesn't tell the parent where they can school their kids. But its because the parent has no other options. Not anyone can afford private school.

If you use the voucher system, how much do you expect private schools to charge the government? That will merely add to the deficit.

FYI, the public school system is the one main fundamental reasons for the prosperity of the USA for well over a century. It led to a high literacy rate in the population. Its success led to similar systems being made around the world---including China where its high literacy rate is considered a fundamental key to its economic success.

The decay of the US public school system is a phenomenon that seems strictly within the US itself, and not because the concept itself is flawed but this decay is due to cultural factors surrounding the schools. If the concept is flawed, then every other public school system in other countries should have common flaws right? If scores from the US public school system is lower than than kids from Korea, Japan and China, its not the fault of the public school system as a concept, because all those CJK kids are also coming out from public school systems.

Understand this, the alternative economic cost of having an illiterate population, especially with teenagers and adults, would be far higher. Not just in poverty, but anything from crime rates to social disorder.

Who's talking about illiteracy? I'm not trying to promote illiteracy here. Are you?

The government definitely does tell where the parents ought to send their kids by the virtue of the fact that the tax dollars forced out of the pockets of the parents are mandatorily spent on local public schools. I fail to see how this would be different from a scenario where the government taxes you on medical services and puts that money in an arbitrary clinic, where it's only 'free' if you go there, but you'd have to pay additional to visit other health care providers if you find that the doctors at other places are better. Put it this way, the parents that live in crappy school districts almost have no choice to send their kids elsewhere because a portion of their income had already been taken by the government to spend on those schools. That's not freedom. That's government force, paternalism, and ineptitude.


None of the private competition is willing to deliver mail around the US for .41 cents. Neither will UPS or DHL deliver packages for less than five dollars for a pound. The USPS actually makes money. Private companies cannot have the sheer volume of scale that is important for the efficiency required.

Ha. You really ought to look at the numbers themselves.

In the year 2007, USPS incurred an operating loss of $5.327 billion dollars on $74.9 billion dollars of net revenue. On the other hand, UPS achieved an operating income of $578 million on a lesser revenue base of $49.7 billion. I'll let the operating margin speak for themselves. Another indicator of efficiency is the revenue per employee, not profit, but revenue. The average revenue per employee at UPS is around $117,000, while that of USPS is $95,394. The facts clearly are not on your side.

And again, don't think for a second that your tax dollars aren't paying the salaries of dead weight in government run services agencies.

Only the government can be truly neutral when it runs independent product testing which can be very expensive. If a private institution finances product testing, its neutrality would be in doubt in relation to whoever pays for this institution. If a series of leading companies in an industry decides to form a standard on their own, then creates an institution to do that product testing, then so much the better. That would be a case of self regulation and policing. Lawyers bars are an example. Another are the various standards created within the computer industry.

However many industries don't do that, so the government has to step in until this industry as a whole decides to formalize standards and testing. The auto industry is one example where no consensus has ever been made on standards and testing, leading to the government interventions of Detroit in the sixties. In every developed country, automobile regulations are there and tight, and it should be noted that it is tightest in countries like Germany and Japan where the best cars are made.

There is merit to government regulations in certain instances. I just don't think that the government ought to step in and place a floor on risks that consumers themselves are fully willing to take. After all, if you are a proponent of the government telling everyone that they ought to spend an extra thousand dollars in each car for airbags to protect themselves, what's stopping the government from restricting the freedom of consumers to purchase products that may hurt their health, like alcohol or tobacco? Are we going to have the government regulating NASCAR and other 'non-safe' sports too?

But the issue relating directly to China is the issue of whether a government that has no oversight on local officials, no independent judiciary system, is magically going to regulate itself. What makes me laugh is that the same people who are so vehemently opposed to the idea that markets self-regulate are the same ones selling the idea that somehow, a government with no oversight can regulate itself. And when you tell them that it's possible with the establishment of independent judiciary, they automatically counter with the "2000 years of history" bs that has no relevance. Again, I find this all very laughable.
 
Last edited:

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
Governing a large country with a so many provinces with different agendas is not simple. However, China's legacy of corruption proves the present system of governance won't solve the problem either.

What is needed is solutions that are not tried before. Seems to me that the main problem is China's fuedal legacy. Being conditioned to the emperor-slave relationship for so long, the rural people of China will take a long time to shake off this mindset.

There are a lot of talented people in Singapore, Hong Kong & the rest of the world that are looking for challenges, to make their life more meaningful. This are people that are rich and not looking for more wealth but to make contributions that very enrich their lifes in other ways.

Suppose they are hired to the most backward provinces or the provinces with the most corruption & social problems to govern and the power to have the last say in social & economic projects, won't it be something worth trying.

Of course, there would be terrible blow to China's ego & powers to be that will try to sabotage this project all the way.

But looking at all your arguments, China doesn't seem any closer to to solving this problems. New, out of the box solutions ought to be tried out.

No matter how much you think Singapore's small size make its experiences irrelevant, remember when it was born, nobody gave it much of a chane to survive.

Survived, it did not by forever being a victim of its history but by seeking and trying out new solutions.

ding ding ding. We have a winner. I've said this and I'll say it again. The danger to CCP rule is not reform, but rather status quote. Don't be so quick to forget the lessons of the Soviet Union. The CCP has unleashed market forces, and there is absolutely no way to turn back. The only way to go forward is to gradually give the market greater freedom to operate.
 

dlhh

New Member
ding ding ding. We have a winner. I've said this and I'll say it again. The danger to CCP rule is not reform, but rather status quote. Don't be so quick to forget the lessons of the Soviet Union. The CCP has unleashed market forces, and there is absolutely no way to turn back. The only way to go forward is to gradually give the market greater freedom to operate.

Perhaps the CCP is afraid that such too much reforms too fast could lead to calls for alternative governance in provinces & before you know it, another Tianamen Square type of protest.

After all, everyone agrees that China is not ready for western style democracy. Also remember that there are many anti CCP forces outside China ready to take advantage of the situation.
 

Engineer

Major
Governing a large country with a so many provinces with different agendas is not simple. However, China's legacy of corruption proves the present system of governance won't solve the problem either.
Which isn't a proof that the problem is easy to solved as some tries to put it.

Looking back at history, least corruption occurs whenever there is a competenant leader who centralize power into his/her hand. Wu Zetian is perhaps the most notable example. Officals are executed even if he merely got suspected of corruption. Of course, the downside is that many innocent people are also killed in the process.
 
Last edited:

dlhh

New Member
Which isn't a proof that the problem is easy to solved as some tries to put it.

Looking back at history, least corruption occurs whenever there is a competenant leader who centralize power into his/her hand. Wu Zetian is perhaps the most notable example. Officals are executed even if he merely got suspected of corruption. Of course, the downside is that many innocent people are also killed in the process.

Isn't that the way China is governed today. However, everyone in this thread have not given the vote of confidence the CCP will resolve the issue of corruption.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Let me just say that it never fails to astound me whenever I hear someone uses the "2000 years of history" argument in defense of an all powerful Chinese government. If history has taught you anything, it is that such governments have again and again, without failure, ended in human tragedies after human tragedies.

Your reply again implies that I want China to totally adopt a Western style democratic government. That is not what I want to do. Political freedom is not something that would promote the social stability of China right now, I agree. But what you are having a tough time understanding is that economic freedom is different from political freedom, that the 'western-style' economic freedom has in fact been embraced by the Chinese society at large, and has without dispute, resulted in the best living standards that the Chinese people have ever enjoyed in their long history. All I propose is that we ought to go down this proven road of success even further, so that the rest of the dead weight loss in the system can be cut out faster. Again, in lean times like these, China can't afford to continue feeding the fat pigs at the bureaucracy.

rather than telling me how the other "2000 years of history" arguments sounded stupid to you, which i am not interested in knowing, you might wanna focus on the issue at hand and debate using logic.

i am not blind i can see that you are trying to distinguish economic freedom from political freedom. but you fail to understand that this so called economic freedom can have political and social ramifications. you take it as some sort of magic formula that would suddenly sort out all of these problems that everyone has been looking for the solutions of for thousands of years. economic freedom is something that China is prolly gonna try in the near future. but dont expect corruption to be eliminated like that. corruption came from power, so wherever power goes corruption tags along. so if you give the power to the market corruption will plague the market, much like what we are seeing in the United States. economic freedom is necessary to a certain degree, but for a developing country like China, i would feel safer if the central government retains a significant control over the economy.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Isn't that the way China is governed today. However, everyone in this thread have not given the vote of confidence the CCP will resolve the issue of corruption.

no the Chinese presidents nowadays have way less power than the really good emperors of the past. it has been the case since Deng Xiaoping for obvious reasons. and the most successful anti-corruption emperor is actually YongZheng of Qing dynasty. Wu zetian, Zhu Yuanzhang, Li shimin are all up there in terms of killin corrupted officials too but none has been as successful as YongZheng. former PM Zhu Rongji even ordered the Chinese officials to watch the drama "Yong Zheng Dynasty". for those of you who understands Chinese and havent watched this or read the book, i highly recommend it. it gives you a good insight on what the Chinese politics is like. once you've seen how "deep" the "water" is you wont come up with stupid conclusions such as "well if we do this like this country all the problems will be solved"
 

dlhh

New Member
no the Chinese presidents nowadays have way less power than the really good emperors of the past. it has been the case since Deng Xiaoping for obvious reasons. and the most successful anti-corruption emperor is actually YongZheng of Qing dynasty. Wu zetian, Zhu Yuanzhang, Li shimin are all up there in terms of killin corrupted officials too but none has been as successful as YongZheng. former PM Zhu Rongji even ordered the Chinese officials to watch the drama "Yong Zheng Dynasty". for those of you who understands Chinese and havent watched this or read the book, i highly recommend it. it gives you a good insight on what the Chinese politics is like. once you've seen how "deep" the "water" is you wont come up with stupid conclusions such as "well if we do this like this country all the problems will be solved"

China will never go back to the days of emperors with absolute power.

Even for corrupt officials, she has to toe the line with international norms.

Western hypocrisy allows corrupt officials to flee to their countries with ill gotten gains and say they will face the death sentence or just downlight lies allegiing political prosecution to escape deportation back to China. I believe Canada still have a case pending for the notorious criminal from Fujian. I believe there are many more cases where China can't get thier hand on these criminals because of the different interpretations of criminal justice & capital punishment.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Who's talking about illiteracy? I'm not trying to promote illiteracy here. Are you?

The government definitely does tell where the parents ought to send their kids by the virtue of the fact that the tax dollars forced out of the pockets of the parents are mandatorily spent on local public schools. I fail to see how this would be different from a scenario where the government taxes you on medical services and puts that money in an arbitrary clinic, where it's only 'free' if you go there, but you'd have to pay additional to visit other health care providers if you find that the doctors at other places are better. Put it this way, the parents that live in crappy school districts almost have no choice to send their kids elsewhere because a portion of their income had already been taken by the government to spend on those schools. That's not freedom. That's government force, paternalism, and ineptitude.

Do you understand what you are talking about? The portion of the yearly tax taken from the low to middle income groups, do not amount to a fraction to what the same person will spend in just one month of top quality private school. Many private schools have fees over several hundred dollars per month, how much total tax a low or middle incomer pays for a year?

Progressive taxation also means that who is actually paying for those schools, are the high income groups. So in effect, that is true wealth distribution.

Ha. You really ought to look at the numbers themselves.

In the year 2007, USPS incurred an operating loss of $5.327 billion dollars on $74.9 billion dollars of net revenue. On the other hand, UPS achieved an operating income of $578 million on a lesser revenue base of $49.7 billion. I'll let the operating margin speak for themselves. Another indicator of efficiency is the revenue per employee, not profit, but revenue. The average revenue per employee at UPS is around $117,000, while that of USPS is $95,394. The facts clearly are not on your side.

Yes, well, UPS is the one charging about 30 bucks to have something one pound shipped from California to Hawaii. USPS would have charged around 3 dollars.

If it were not for USPS, I don't think eBay or Amazon would survive. USPS is what I ship when I buy from both. In fact the whole mail order industry still depends on USPS mostly.

And because of USPS, mail order companies get their business and pay state and Federal taxes.

And again, don't think for a second that your tax dollars aren't paying the salaries of dead weight in government run services agencies.

For that matter, both your tax dollars and your private dollars are also used to pay for salaries of dead weight even in corporations and corporate executive with their compensation packages. President of General Motors is paid a lot more, at least 10X (20x?) more than the President of the United States.
 
Top