It seems there's still chances the CVF's will operate F-35C variants pretty soon into their service life. Aparrently there are people in the MoD that would like to have that capability and it doesn't seem that remote. Maybe it'll be a mix. And perhaps at least the PoW will operate a arrestor system from the beginning. That might alway be an option to have one capability each.
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U.K. May Reconsider STOVL JSF for Conventional Ship Variant
By andrew chuter
Published: 7 Aug 2009 13:43
ONDON - Media reports late last week that Britain may ditch the short-takeoff and vertical-landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter in favor of the conventional carrier variant were not entirely dismissed by a Ministry of Defence statement, which appeared to leave the door ajar for a possible change of platform for the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers.
"To maximize the flexibility that the carriers will offer over their service life, they are being built to an adaptable design that can operate both STOVL and CV type aircraft. The QE Class are designed around the operation of the STOVL Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, and this remains our preferred solution to meet the UK's Carrier Strike requirement along with the Queen Elizabeth Class of carriers and the Maritime Airborne Surveillance Capability," the statement said.
Britain has already ordered three STOVL F-35s for operational evaluation, but MoD insiders say there remains a school of thought among some in the ministry to look again at the CV aircraft.
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U.K. May Reconsider STOVL JSF for Conventional Ship Variant
By andrew chuter
Published: 7 Aug 2009 13:43
ONDON - Media reports late last week that Britain may ditch the short-takeoff and vertical-landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter in favor of the conventional carrier variant were not entirely dismissed by a Ministry of Defence statement, which appeared to leave the door ajar for a possible change of platform for the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers.
"To maximize the flexibility that the carriers will offer over their service life, they are being built to an adaptable design that can operate both STOVL and CV type aircraft. The QE Class are designed around the operation of the STOVL Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, and this remains our preferred solution to meet the UK's Carrier Strike requirement along with the Queen Elizabeth Class of carriers and the Maritime Airborne Surveillance Capability," the statement said.
Britain has already ordered three STOVL F-35s for operational evaluation, but MoD insiders say there remains a school of thought among some in the ministry to look again at the CV aircraft.
Latest news about the Naval Strike Wing from Janes Defence weekly, the main points are:
Regenerating Core Capabilities.
* Long term deployments lasting weeks or months with 10+ jets are to be come much more common.
* Too much skill fade with the current arrangement.
* Unlikely light blue will get enough sea time to get night qualified. So dark blue will do day/night, light blue day only.
* Joint deployment with USMC will continue, leading to a major ex next spring off the US East coast combining NSW and USMC airgroups. They can operate 16 or more Harriers.
* 801 will stand up late next year as part of the NSW, making 4 sqns in total.
And a rumour doing the rounds that 892NAS may return as well! (not holding my breath on that one, but still a positive move). The deployment to the 'Stan and the ongoing JUMP upgrade program have meant a reduction in available airframes for the existing three frontline sqns up until now, added to the fact that the FAA have been sending some of their pilots and ground crew through the USN training 'pipeline', to gain experience in operations from large deck carriers in preparation for the CVFs. All in all it seems a positive move for the FAA and bodes well for the future. :nana:
Regenerating Core Capabilities.
* Long term deployments lasting weeks or months with 10+ jets are to be come much more common.
* Too much skill fade with the current arrangement.
* Unlikely light blue will get enough sea time to get night qualified. So dark blue will do day/night, light blue day only.
* Joint deployment with USMC will continue, leading to a major ex next spring off the US East coast combining NSW and USMC airgroups. They can operate 16 or more Harriers.
* 801 will stand up late next year as part of the NSW, making 4 sqns in total.
And a rumour doing the rounds that 892NAS may return as well! (not holding my breath on that one, but still a positive move). The deployment to the 'Stan and the ongoing JUMP upgrade program have meant a reduction in available airframes for the existing three frontline sqns up until now, added to the fact that the FAA have been sending some of their pilots and ground crew through the USN training 'pipeline', to gain experience in operations from large deck carriers in preparation for the CVFs. All in all it seems a positive move for the FAA and bodes well for the future. :nana:
Neutral Zone
Junior Member
Certainly one for the "I'll believe it when I see it" file but certainly it's the sort of rumour you want to be hearing!
It would be fitting if 892 NAS were to be the RN's first F-35 unit, complete with an alpha tailbadge!
Ambivalent
Junior Member
The Royal Navy should build the same version of the CVF the French are going to build and be done with it. Then if the F-35B or C turns out to be a turd ( or hideously over priced ) the RN can buy Rafael's. It also gives them the ability to operate the E-2D, and that is a huge advantage of CATOBAR in my view.
Neutral Zone
Junior Member
Well the fall back plan in case the F-35B doesn't come up to standard is to build HMS Queen Elizabeth as a STOVL carrier and use the existing Harriers as her air group, HMS Prince of Wales would then be built as a CATOBAR carrier from the outset and the F-35C would be ordered and Queen Elizabeth would then be refitted to CATOBAR standard at the earliest opportunity.
One of the big reasons why the UK is ticking with STOVL is that the VSTOL version of the F-35's F-135 engine uses a lot of technology which will be built in the UK by Rolls Royce. If it's cancelled then a lot of jobs and design expertise in the UK will be lost. Also there would be a lot of additional costs involved in switching to CATOBAR such as crew training, OK you could contract this out to the USN as the French do but you would also be throwing away the 30 odd years of experience that the RN has built up with VSTOL aircraft.
If F-35 is completely canned then as you say Rafale would be the only feasible option. Certainly you do get a lot of advantages, not least with the capability that the Hawkeye gives you.
Neutral Zone
Junior Member
I'm wondering how long current Harriers could continiue to fly off a carrier should they be needed on the HMS QE after 2015.
The USMC will still buy around 340 STOVLs, I think, and Italy 22, maybe Spain also. So RR still has some engines to sell.
I guess the question, however, is: where would the additional Cs for the UK come from? Are the production lines so interchangeable that LM can built Cs on the UK B line? Or will it cause a traffic jam on the C line?
I've also read the opinion somewhere, that since Cs have a longer range/airborne time, the UK would need less C than B to fullfill the same mission and could actually save money by buying lesser A/C.
Could they get away with that under the contract?
The USMC will still buy around 340 STOVLs, I think, and Italy 22, maybe Spain also. So RR still has some engines to sell.
I guess the question, however, is: where would the additional Cs for the UK come from? Are the production lines so interchangeable that LM can built Cs on the UK B line? Or will it cause a traffic jam on the C line?
I've also read the opinion somewhere, that since Cs have a longer range/airborne time, the UK would need less C than B to fullfill the same mission and could actually save money by buying lesser A/C.
Could they get away with that under the contract?
At the moment the Harriers are officially stated as remaining in service to around 2018, though there will be some flexibility about that date too I'd imagine. There will be a transition period as the Lightnings will be bought in batches, so for a couple of years at least the Harriers will be operated alongside the Lightnings until the latter are available in sufficient numbers to take on the mantle of carrier strike. After the OCU is formed, the FAA sqns are scheduled to recieve the Lightning first and work up on them, so the RAF will carry on with the Harrier for a while (with a larger pool of airframes to draw on, extending the lifetime available) before they convert too. If the Navy were to choose C models, these would simply come from the USNs production slots (as the RAAF's Super Hornets do now) as the numbers involved would not greatly impact the USNs production plan. Indeed the USN and USAF are both considering ramping up their production schedules to close a forecast 'fighter gap' in the next decade.
The initial purchase for the UK should still be the F-35B, about sixty or so to provide IOC, after which F-35Cs should be aquired for the FAA and their sqns can convert over from the 'Bs. This gives the RAF a homogenous force which can deploy on land or at sea as required, and the Navy can provide the backbone of the carrier strike force, with an increase from two to four sqns to equip two air groups full time (one 'on call', one in training/reserve).
Please, do not mention buying less numbers of aircraft, the treasury might be listening!:nono:
Ambivalent
Junior Member
Well, RN F-35B's or C's will NOT be coming out of USN or USMC production slots. That is a certainty. In fact, the USAF is going to have to wait for their F-35A's until the current fighter shortages in the USN and USMC are addressed. The current plan as I know it is to field the B model first for the Marines, followed as quickly as possible by the C. Even with current plans there will be more F/A-18C's and D's retired than total F/A-18E's and F's and F-35's brought on board. The USN is really hurting for aircraft right now, to the point of dragging F/A-18A's out of the bone yard to replace worn out C's. They get a quick upgrade, not to full C spec ( less all weather air to ground capability than a C ) and call them "Super A's".At the moment the Harriers are officially stated as remaining in service to around 2018, though there will be some flexibility about that date too I'd imagine. There will be a transition period as the Lightnings will be bought in batches, so for a couple of years at least the Harriers will be operated alongside the Lightnings until the latter are available in sufficient numbers to take on the mantle of carrier strike. After the OCU is formed, the FAA sqns are scheduled to recieve the Lightning first and work up on them, so the RAF will carry on with the Harrier for a while (with a larger pool of airframes to draw on, extending the lifetime available) before they convert too. If the Navy were to choose C models, these would simply come from the USNs production slots (as the RAAF's Super Hornets do now) as the numbers involved would not greatly impact the USNs production plan. Indeed the USN and USAF are both considering ramping up their production schedules to close a forecast 'fighter gap' in the next decade.
The initial purchase for the UK should still be the F-35B, about sixty or so to provide IOC, after which F-35Cs should be aquired for the FAA and their sqns can convert over from the 'Bs. This gives the RAF a homogenous force which can deploy on land or at sea as required, and the Navy can provide the backbone of the carrier strike force, with an increase from two to four sqns to equip two air groups full time (one 'on call', one in training/reserve).
Please, do not mention buying less numbers of aircraft, the treasury might be listening!:nono: