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tphuang

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F-22 can't even be fully updated to 2020s level, and openly struggles to even keep up; comparing this dead end to anything is disingenuous. GCAP was listed as open platform with CCA integration as the basic design goal from day 0. F-22, as it seems, may not even be able to work with them at all.

I also don't really get 5.5/6 gen separation in the context of those two. VLO? if j-xx has stabilizers as reported, I don't see how we differentiate. Unless, of course, we fall into f-16.net level turtling, and any unfavourable input is countered with a block phrase "but us technology".
What is 5.5 and 6 gen respectively about J-XX and GCAP? 3 engines? Will a 12-engine aircraft be more advanced still?


(1)GCAP lists all of those(as does FCAS, it isn't kind of knowledge that only we at sinodefense has access to). Also, while the engine is most certainly not important, the high-power electrical platform must come from somewhere.
(2)I am very firmly against considering range and size generational metrics. They were generational metrics for battleships - because those were effectively stuck technologically, and growing size was the only way to increase combat efficiency.
Range is a metric of geography and requirement. Flanker isn't higher generation than F-22, after all.
The British can call GCAP 6th generation if they want. It's a marketing term after all.

But if you just look at GCAP planform vs F-22, there is not a lot of differences to me. As in, I don't see a particular leap in stealth.

If CAC's 6th gen project has a planform that looks like GCAP, then it would be a disappointment.

Just saying it can control a bunch of UCAVs & has AI doesn't mean much. There are AI and loyal wingman support in J-20S, does that make it a 6th gen aircraft? There are levels in AI and ability to do sensor fusion.

the high-power electrical platform must come from somewhere.
power used by electrical system is a tiny fraction of the overall energy generated by propulsion system.

size and modern electrical system technology are fundamental in getting to the next-gen performance. You need a lot of interior space in order to house all the electrical system needed in a modern military aircraft. Especially one that is expected to essentially replace AWACS & direct a whole bunch of UCAVs. I don't think a F-22 sized aircraft gets you there.

If you just want to think about it as generation gap in performance, then you need to be able to achieve things that cannot be achieved in 5th gen platform as of now.

Being able to loiter for long period of time across long range is one such measure.
Being able to track B-21 with weapon grade quality tracking from > 50 km out through its own powerful radar + fused with that of UCAVs & such is another high quality measure
Having enough power for DEW that can disable incoming missiles. That's a capability.
Being able to get out of a messy situation by supercruising away at mach2.0+, that's a capability. Btw, Shilao folks were speculating Mach3.0 super cruising once you get to the next generation engine after WS-15. Think about that.
Being able to conduct strike missions against well defended positions that are 3000 km away, that's a capability.

and realistically, the British and Japanese don't have the fundamentally baseline tech for a lot of this stuff.

And I say this as someone who follows baseline tech more than military stuff.
 

GTI

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Future again.

(1)Ej-2000 is already basically a 5th gen engine, with inlet temperature and thrust ratio just baaarely below ws-15. It's operational for two decades though, and ws-15 is not, as of 12/2024.

From tech level perspective, ej-2000 is higher than "even russian" 117(117s) - one may argue it's simply newer basic design, but the fact stands. 117/117s, in turn, is the best operational Chinese engine, still ahead of ws-13c in every metric.
Apart from that, RR also did F136.

(2)being large isn't exactly sign of anything, unless you consider fuel tank volume as technology metric.
Small stealth fighter the size of ARL Piranha can be no less advanced than large stealth fighter the size of J-xx.

Being large is a sign of unique Chinese operational requirement, aimed at disrupting US order of battle in Pacific theater. Just as being large was a sign of unique operational requirement of Russian arctic interceptors.

All key aspects of 6th gen, including LO, advanced architecture aspects, CCA and adaptive engine, are listed for GCAP.
Seriously, can you go and carry water for the Europeans somewhere else.

I opened this thread to read about China’s 6th gen fighter (or maybe we should just say “aircraft” for now). I didn’t come here to read endless nonsense and back-and-forths about European and US fighters and tech.
 

bsdnf

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GCA promises all the 6th gen features, including advanced engines with extreme energy/heatloss metrics, from the day 1. And there's RR behind those promises, which isn't exactly behind China in engines.

If anything, let's see of course, but I am not yet sold that we see something especially conceptually new with j-xx.
Big isn't new, big is simply that - big. For other things, let us see the thing first. J-XX also has to deliver.

Yes, GCA retains vertical stabilizers, but it isn't obvious that anyone other than US, maybe, will be able to drop them before 2040. Maybe, because US also has to DOGE their way out of debt first.
What are you talking about? Yes, EJ-200 is an advanced medium-thrust engine, but the intermediate thrust is 6 tons and the afterburner thrust is 9 tons. How can it compare with the WS-15 with an afterburner thrust of 18.5 tons? Yes, the EJ2x0 Stage2 on the GCAP prototype will increase the thrust to 7.9 tons/12 tons, but that's it. The reality is that only China, the United States and Russia have mastered high-thrust engines, and RR has never had the technology to independently produce high-thrust engines.
At present, there are only two long-term engine plans for GCAP: RR's XG240 and Japan's XF-91. The former has a thrust of 9 tons/13 tons, and the latter has a thrust of 10 tons/15 tons but is very immature and expensive. No matter which engine is finally installed on the GCAP, which is much heavier than the J-20, I wish them good luck.
 

Alfa_Particle

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What are you talking about? Yes, EJ-200 is an advanced medium-thrust engine, but the intermediate thrust is 6 tons and the afterburner thrust is 9 tons. How can it compare with the WS-15 with an afterburner thrust of 18.5 tons? Yes, the EJ2x0 Stage2 on the GCAP prototype will increase the thrust to 7.9 tons/12 tons, but that's it. The reality is that only China, the United States and Russia have mastered high-thrust engines, and RR has never had the technology to independently produce high-thrust engines.
At present, there are only two long-term engine plans for GCAP: RR's XG240 and Japan's XF-91. The former has a thrust of 9 tons/13 tons, and the latter has a thrust of 10 tons/15 tons but is very immature and expensive. No matter which engine is finally installed on the GCAP, which is much heavier than the J-20, I wish them good luck.
Hoooold up. Not exactly. Your point is built on comparing the thrust levels of two engines of different classes when (I believe) the original point was the technological level. I fully believe that the EJ200 is indeed a 5th generation engine in the medium-thrust class, like what the WS-19 would be. It's comparable to the WS-15 in terms of technology, not thrust class.

Instead of saying:
RR has never had the technology to independently produce high-thrust engines.
... because they absolutely do have the technology to do so independently, it's more apt to say they never had a demand (aircraft to be installed in) for such a class of engines. A bit like China and the CJ-1000A.

At present, there are only two long-term engine plans for GCAP: RR's XG240 and Japan's XF-91. The former has a thrust of 9 tons/13 tons, and the latter has a thrust of 10 tons/15 tons but is very immature and expensive.
Where did the thrust figures come from? Last I checked, the XG240 is a three-stream ACE, 13 tons have got to be a criminal lowball.

Japan used to be the best in terms of materials/metallurgy, now I'm not so sure. But even so, they're indeed incredibly immature on designing engines. Borderline abysmal even. Wonder if they improved, but I doubt it.

Point is, RR/Eurojet absolutely have what it takes to make a competent 6th Gen engine, or at least design one.
 

MarKoz81

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A few thoughts on what constitutes a 6gen and why for the purpose of this project and commentary on tphuangs suggestions - didn't fit in a single post so as an exception I wrote a double. I think that will be it for Christmas so I wish you a happy holiday season as well.

If CAC's 6th gen project has a planform that looks like GCAP, then it would be a disappointment.

Just saying it can control a bunch of UCAVs & has AI doesn't mean much. There are AI and loyal wingman support in J-20S, does that make it a 6th gen aircraft? There are levels in AI and ability to do sensor fusion.

Yes it does.

In theory J-20 may be upgraded to sufficient capabilities that it will be a "de facto" 6gen. Everything that concerns AI and sensor fusion and UCAV control can be retrofitted into a J-20S airframe without much difficulty. It may not be very efficient wiring but it can be done in the same way that MiG-21 can be retrofitted to 4gen standards only with lower range of radar due to aperture size.

Upgrade of J-20S will likely result in degraded performance of such aircraft vs a J-20A but that is not relevant. 6gen performance doesn't need to match 5gen performance because the tactics will be entirely different in the same way that 5gen tactics differ from 4gen tactics and 4gen tactics differ from 3gen etc etc.

This is one major aspect of differentiating between generations that is almost always ignored - tactics. If a weapon system is an instrument of war and its specs are its range then tactics are what it excels at.

A baseline MiG-21 (2gen) can't perform the same tactics as F-16A Block 15 (4gen) but the same MiG-21 upgraded to 4gen standards will be able to engage in the same tactics even if the effectiveness against F-16A will be lower for objective reasons.

As follows if an upgraded 5gen can engage a 6gen aircraft with 6gen tactics it makes it de facto 6gen.

You can try a counter-argument but I doubt you will get anywhere with it.I know because I tried it once and failed which is why I rethought my position.

Further proof:

Note that when J-20 started it didn't match all of the informal 5gen traits lacking appropriate radar, engines and sensor fusion. It was de facto 4gen VLO. But because it had the defining trait of 5gen which is VLO airframe it could be upgraded over time to become a proper or "de jure" 5gen.

Therefore J-20 won't be a full 6gen if and only if the defining trait of next generation is an airframe requirement. Which it won't be because every generation so far had a single defining trait - and that single trait was directly responsible for the available tactics.

The first 5gen ATF had the following fundamental requirements:
  • VLO airframe,
  • supercruise,
  • AESA radar,
  • sensor fusion.
Everything else was added at a later stage, so those are the "original 5gen characteristics".

Of those only VLO airframe is something that can't be retrofitted to another aircraft type thus it defines the "sine qua non" of 5gen. The sine qua non trait is what we would describe in evolutionary dynamics as point of speciation.

Generations of fighters follow the same rules of evolution, gradual adaptation and punctuated equilibrium as species in biology. This is why speaking of "generations" is really misleading because F-16 and F-35 are a different "species" of fighter. Block 10, Block 15, Block 25, Block 30, Block 50 are "generations". And we know that because the defining characteristic of a species is that it individuals of two different species can't interbreed. In other words you can upgrade or downgrade a F-16 between blocks but you will never turn an F-16 into a F-35 and vice versa.

You are essentially projecting your own preferences for what a 6gen should be onto aircraft which are the result of work of actual specialists in the relevant fields - including air tactics. You are not a specialist in relevant fields. Therefore it stands to reason that they know what they are doing and you don't. So you should be asking why those aircraft differ from your expectations and where you may be making a errors, not where and why they fail to meet your expectations. Your logic is backwards and your decision to consider something 5.5gen instead of 6gen (because it's a marketing term) is just a cop out.

Consider:

The US was able to design a concept for a VLO fighter that remains in active use today in late 1980s when medium-range ARH missiles weren't in service yet and when the digital workstation had less computing power than a smartphone a decade ago. Designing a contemporary VLO airframe (different than F-117) was not the challenge in ATF as the program resulted in two VLO airframes of which the selected one was inferior. At exactly the same time Northrop developed a VLO bomber that remains in active use today. F-22 also has greater RCS in rear aspect compared to an older F-117 because it was deemed not necessary. F-35 has also (at least superficially) greater RCS in rear aspect compared to F-22 and most 5gens have an even greater rear RCS. Is it because designers in 2020s don't know how to solve what Lockheed could do in 1991?

This is not rational. The answer is that tactics - which needed extensive practical use of a VLO airframe - proved the limiting factor. If viable tactics don't need low rear RCS then it won't be necessary.

The planform for F-22 is the same general planform that is being used in both FCAS and GCAP. This doesn't indicate that any of these fighters are outdated but rather that F-22 achieved sufficient parameters for whatever its intended role which is tactics. If that intended role and the resulting tactical capabilities match the intended role and tactical capabilities for FCAS or GCAP then there is no need to complicate the design for the sake of higher performance. Nobody needs an additional problem to solve, especially not at war.

Furthermore:

There are fundamental differences in how the US or China will be using their 6gen fighters compared to how Britain or France or Japan will use them. US and China having greater resources at their disposal will be able to devote some of those resources for high-risk/high-payoff missions like penetration of enemy-controlled airspace. France or Japan will not and their strategy and tactics will be more conservative. If you know that your doctrine will be conservative then expending resources on developing a non-conservative design is wasteful. It's better to have more airframes with lower performance than fewer with higher performance if lower performance is what is sufficient for you to reach a necessary capability.

But even between China and the US there will be a fundamental difference in how they will use their fighters. China can in its current situation fall on its geographical advantage and choose a more conservative strategy. US can't. Therefore the US must procure the most advanced system in terms of VLO or give up the field of battle. China doesn't. It can follow the development strategy of smaller countries because it can capitalise on its production capability to generate much higher numbers of less capable systems. It's dialectical materialism in warfare - quantity has an inherent quality of its own.

There is also a famous saying about Pentagon procurement that bottom 90% of capability consumes bottom 10% of budget and top 10% of capability consumes top 90% of budget. The changes to design that for you seem trivial may not be a trivial position on the budget side. What you think is disappointing may be a relief to anyone handling the resources behind the project. Budget problems can shoot down fighters so well that they won't even leave the factory.

Alternatively, ask yourself the question: does China need 100% capability when 90% or 80% buys 150% the number?

War is not a beauty contest.
 

MarKoz81

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cont.

size and modern electrical system technology are fundamental in getting to the next-gen performance. You need a lot of interior space in order to house all the electrical system needed in a modern military aircraft. Especially one that is expected to essentially replace AWACS & direct a whole bunch of UCAVs. I don't think a F-22 sized aircraft gets you there.

6gens won't be AWACS. They will be decision nodes acting through secure datalinks - so only the "CS" part.

If use of radar can be avoided it should be avoided. LPI as it is achievable presently has its limitations. And since active and passive detection utilise the same phenomena of wave propagation it will never change until fundamental technology changes e.g. quantum radar is introduced. Until then these two will always follow in lock-step meaning that the only situation where radar can be used will be against opponents without the capability to detect its use - not peers.

You can't abolish physics with technology and a lot of the reasoning here indicates precisely that desire.

As for directing UCAVs - it is impossible without AI augmentation or autonomy. You won't be able to do it unless you have an AWACS-sized crew focusing on directing drones. With AI you can reduce it to a single operator so a 2-man crew is sufficient for a D-node.

Being able to loiter for long period of time across long range is one such measure.

The ranges and flight duration of unmanned aircraft that is currently technologically achievable is close to an order of magnitude above that of a manned aircraft.

Any manned platform has to consider the mass of the pilot, the ejection seat and life support systems and the mass of the machine interface as well as geometry of the airframe which makes it possibly for a pilot to fly the plane. That mass shouldn't be in the air.

Unmanned aircraft which can be networked have the advantage of working as a distributed system. They can divide sensor and weapon payloads as well as spare fuel among multiple airframes and work as an integrated system, very much how ground units operate. Optimisation that results from that provides for gains in range and flight duration that are incomparable to anything achievable by a manned platform.

The main limitation for manned aircraft is crew resilience. Combat flying is incredibly hard work even without extreme g loads. Our bodies are not designed for that and the strain builds up until the pilot can't fly any more until full recovery. This is why nobody will put the crew in the air for a minute longer than it is absolutely necessary.

Here is where learning air warfare from Americans can be misleading. There was a lot of air warfare done since 1991 Gulf War but almost none of it was done in genuine "war" conditions. Combat missions in Afghanistan flown from distant bases with refueling are not how wars are fought. They were closer to exercises than warfare. In actual war such mission has so many points of failure resulting from improper planning that it would require incredible luck for success. Example of such mission is the V-bomber raid on the Falklands which was by RAF's admission a deliberate propaganda stunt and a complete stroke of luck.

In war any mission must be as invulnerable to enemy counteraction as possible.

Being able to track B-21 with weapon grade quality tracking from > 50 km out through its own powerful radar + fused with that of UCAVs & such is another high quality measure

The B-21 will have an EW system capable of locating radar emissions and has sufficient payload to carry a long-range missile for self-defense. But the problems go further. Due to the mechanics of wave propagation passive detection will always have a stable mathematical advantage over active detection. This means that a heavy bomber such as B-21 will be in better position to detect a threat before the the threat can successfully engage it. It will also always have more room and power for self-defense systems because protecting the bomber is always a priority over executing the mission.

If B-21 is attacked it can simply drop the payload and use the gain in thrust to generate sufficient energy to overpower whatever the threat has available. And that is besides the possibility of a number of loyal wingmen flying the mission with the bombers.

Having enough power for DEW that can disable incoming missiles. That's a capability.

The actual application of DEW differs from PR presentations and DEW is a marketing term.

DEW won't be shooting down incoming missiles but destroying their guidance systems. A laser can fry an IR sensor and a direct EM pulse can fry a radar antenna. You don't even need to disable it completely just damage it so that counter-measures become effective. For such effect less energy and less concentration is necessary so it can be achieved more reliably and against multiple targets.

How would you even plan a trajectory against an incoming missile to shoot it down at extreme ranges? Take a sheet of paper and try drawing a diagram reflecting the trajectories and you will see that is not viable. DEW is limited by the same physical conditions as all EM systems. Energy dissipates very quickly in the atmosphere. The time needed to damage the body of a missile is too great. It is also trivial to wrap missiles in reflective surfaces that will extend that time even more. DEW could however be extremely efficient for shooting down stand-off munitions especially if it allows to replace missiles with drop tanks.

Where DEW will be viable it won't be a problem for GCAP.

Being able to get out of a messy situation by supercruising away at mach2.0+, that's a capability.

Trying to escape at 2Ma when the missile targeting you travels at 5Ma isn't viable and it is much easier to design a long-range missile with top speed of 5-6Ma than to design an aircraft capable of cruising at 2Ma.

The only aircraft which has 2Ma cruising ability is MiG-31. It has that ability in order to quickly reach the intercept point. Not to disengage from combat because that is not viable. The standard tactic for disengagement for MiG-31 is to climb to maximum altitude. It can cruise at 20km with full weapon load and at 24km without weapons.

The other aircraft with 2Ma+ cruise ability was SR-71 designed in early 60s for strategic recon. It is disputable whether it was a cost-effective system, especially past 1970 when Soviets introduced S-200M with 300km range and 40km ceiling. In mid 1960s USSR also introduced MiG-25 capable of intercepting and engaging SR-71 unless Blackbirds flew at maximum speed which limited its usefulness.

Btw, Shilao folks were speculating Mach3.0 super cruising once you get to the next generation engine after WS-15. Think about that.

3Ma cruise is energy inefficient and the speed creates physical effects on the body of the plane that are not desirable. 2Ma cruise is already fast enough and problematic enough. If we're talking about future trends I'd rather think of a ramjet/scramjet with greater marching speeds.

Remember that the greater the speed the greater any given turn radius. At 3Ma your maneuverability is extremely limited and all missiles can reach 5-6Ma and 40+ g so they will always have an advantage. A ramjet with such speeds can simply fly away without the need to maneuver.

Being able to conduct strike missions against well defended positions that are 3000 km away, that's a capability.

Presently "well defended positions" indicate at minimum multi-layered GBAD and EW systems. Assume 64 to 128 missiles and C-RAM at absolute minimum. In the future it will also include DEW C-RAM. This means that the payload necessary to break through these defenses will have to be carried by multiple heavy bombers possibly executing the mission in waves. Once heavy bombers, especially VLO, are available why would anyone need less capable substitutes???

And I say this as someone who follows baseline tech more than military stuff.

One does not translate onto the other for a very important reason:

Military is about reliable application of technology in extreme conditions and not about extreme application of technology in reliable conditions.

If you were to remember only one thing about the relationship of military and technology it is this. Keep it in mind at all times and it will help you avoid treating war like a beauty contest.
 

bsdnf

New Member
Registered Member
Hoooold up. Not exactly. Your point is built on comparing the thrust levels of two engines of different classes when (I believe) the original point was the technological level. I fully believe that the EJ200 is indeed a 5th generation engine in the medium-thrust class, like what the WS-19 would be. It's comparable to the WS-15 in terms of technology, not thrust class.
好极了。不完全是。您的观点是建立在比较不同级别的两种发动机的推力水平的基础上的,而(我相信)最初的观点是技术水平。我完全相信 EJ200 确实是中等推力级别的第五代发动机,就像 WS-19 一样。它在技术方面可与 WS-15 相媲美,但在推力等级方面则不然。

Instead of saying: 而不是说:

... because they absolutely do have the technology to do so independently, it's more apt to say they never had a demand (aircraft to be installed in) for such a class of engines. A bit like China and the CJ-1000A.
...因为他们绝对拥有独立这样做的技术,所以更合适的说法是他们从未有过对此类发动机的需求(要安装的飞机)。有点像中国和CJ-1000A。


Where did the thrust figures come from? Last I checked, the XG240 is a three-stream ACE, 13 tons have got to be a criminal lowball.
推力数据从何而来?上次我查了一下,XG240是三流ACE,13吨的重量肯定是一个犯罪的低价。

Japan used to be the best in terms of materials/metallurgy, now I'm not so sure. But even so, they're indeed incredibly immature on designing engines. Borderline abysmal even. Wonder if they improved, but I doubt it.
日本曾经在材料/冶金方面是最好的,现在我不太确定。但即便如此,他们在设计引擎方面确实非常不成熟。甚至处于糟糕的边缘。想知道他们是否有所改善,但我对此表示怀疑。

Point is, RR/Eurojet absolutely have what it takes to make a competent 6th Gen engine, or at least design one.
重点是,RR/Eurojet 绝对有能力制造一款合格的第六代发动机,或者至少设计一款。
This is a Japanese blogger speculation. The diameter of XG240 is only 84 cm, between F414 and F110. Its thrust is equivalent to that of F100PW229, which is already very efficient. Can it break through the physical limit and push it to like 15 tons? Not realistic.60212342ly1h4icegcp3fj20u01btdkm.jpg
 

Alfa_Particle

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is a Japanese blogger speculation
And you're telling me that you're gonna take a Japanese blogger's word on... a highly advanced/secretive British engine in development.

The fact that an British engine that's going to power an assumingly huge and heavy aircraft is reported to be smaller than a F100 by a Japanese blogger should raise some red flags about whether or not it's a good source.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Japan used to be the best in terms of materials/metallurgy, now I'm not so sure. But even so, they're indeed incredibly immature on designing engines. Borderline abysmal even. Wonder if they improved, but I doubt it.
Japan is the part of General Electrics global supply chain as IHI and participated many of their top products. Japan is extremely good in Material/Metallurgy and components manufacturing. i think problem lies in their design and integration of parts. and lack of respective infrastructure. Japan could do this but need immense efforts and money.

Rolls Royce and IHI signed agreement for next generation engine development for GCAP.
 

Alfa_Particle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan is the part of General Electrics global supply chain as IHI and participated many of their top products. Japan is extremely good in Material/Metallurgy and components manufacturing. i think problem lies in their design and integration of parts. and lack of respective infrastructure. Japan could do this but need immense efforts and money.

Rolls Royce and IHI signed agreement for next generation engine development for GCAP.
I vaguely remember seeing a cutaway of the XF9 sometime ago and wondered why the design of the core looked so messed up. So yes, they're definitely pretty lacking on the designing department.

But if they work with Eurojet, I genuinely think they can produce an engine so good that even China/US will have struggles topping it.
 
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