UK Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Mr T

Senior Member
I have taken some stick in the past on this subject, but what can I say?Its step one of the same old dance.

Except that the contracts have already been placed, so if they're cancelled the MoD will be sued for the same value and be stuffed. Also according to at least one report I read construction had already "started", though I'm not quite sure what that was referring to - perhaps it means gearing up to first steel being cut.

As far as I understand it, the start of construction hasn't been delayed only that it will take place over an extra 1-2 years.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
If what Mr T says is correct that may lead to the cancellation of the project..There simply will be no money to build.

I read the article and I do not see any economic benifet to cancelling the ships.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
If what Mr T says is correct that may lead to the cancellation of the project..There simply will be no money to build.

What makes you think that, Popeye? It isn't much different from saying that the service date of 2014 was unreaslistic and that 2015 is more achievable for the first ship.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
What makes you think that, Popeye? It isn't much different from saying that the service date of 2014 was unreaslistic and that 2015 is more achievable for the first ship.

If there is a lawsuit over the contracts where will the money come from to pay for that lawsuit? The contracts probaly. As we all know the longer you put this sort of project off the more it shall cost. The MoD is not a bottomless pit of money. It boils down to does the UK really want these ships? Or are they satisfied with the carriers they have now?? If they keep shoving the project down the road it will become to expensive to build.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
If there is a lawsuit over the contracts where will the money come from to pay for that lawsuit? The contracts probaly. As we all know the longer you put this sort of project off the more it shall cost. The MoD is not a bottomless pit of money. It boils down to does the UK really want these ships? Or are they satisfied with the carriers they have now?? If they keep shoving the project down the road it will become to expensive to build.

The problem then becomes an issue of political will and support; and with the contracts for the two carriers spread out across the UK in many ridings, I think most politicians will be extremely hesitant to cancel a project that would provide well paying jobs in their ridings, ensuring that they become re-elected. If there is a funding shortfall for the MoD, the carriers will be among the last things to get the axe.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
If there is a lawsuit over the contracts where will the money come from to pay for that lawsuit? The contracts probaly.

There will only be a court case if the project is cancelled.

It boils down to does the UK really want these ships?

Both the top parties support their purchase.

Or are they satisfied with the carriers they have now?

Yes, though even if they wanted something smaller so much money has been sunk into it that it's too late to bail out now.

If they keep shoving the project down the road it will become to expensive to build.

Pointblank makes a good point about how the contracts are spread out and there isn't will to cancel this project. FRES (the Army's new vehicle) has been chopped for the foreseeable future.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
This delay isn't anything to worry about IMHO. The start date for the CVFs was delayed by about two years before the go ahead this year, but the 'in service' date was kept the same. Now that the ink is dry on the contracts, the shipbuilders have had a quiet word in the Ministers ear about when the ships can actually be delivered, and he has presented this as a cut to the treasury. We would not have got the carriers a day earlier anyway, this is just a reflection of reality, hence the statement that no jobs will be lost. They will not be working any slower than they would have because the schedule is now realistic. Also the minister announced that Ark and Lusty would be retained until replaced by the CVFs, so talk of withdrawal in 2012 and 2015 should end now. I think the RAF's proposal to ditch the Harrier force is probably dead in the water too now, as having carriers with no aircraft (even if they are a nominal number) would be too politically embarrassing even for this shower...
 

flyzies

Junior Member
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Nuclear subs crashed in Atlantic: report

A British and a French submarine, both of them nuclear-powered and carrying nuclear weapons, collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, the Sun newspaper reported on Monday.

The British tabloid said HMS Vanguard and France's Le Triomphant were both damaged in the incident, but there were no reports of damage to the nuclear parts.

The British sub has now been towed to Faslane in Scotland for repair.

Both vessels - between them carrying about 250 sailors - were reportedly submerged and on separate missions when they crashed on February 3 or 4.

The UK Ministry of Defence refuses to comment on submarine operations but a spokesman said: "We can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

HMS Vanguard is one of four nuclear submarines operated by the British military as part of its Trident system, and one is always on deterrent patrol.

Each vessel is 150 metres long and 13 metres in diameter, and can carry up to 48 nuclear warheads on a maximum of 16 missiles.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
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Nuclear subs crashed in Atlantic: report

A British and a French submarine, both of them nuclear-powered and carrying nuclear weapons, collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, the Sun newspaper reported on Monday.

The British tabloid said HMS Vanguard and France's Le Triomphant were both damaged in the incident, but there were no reports of damage to the nuclear parts.

The British sub has now been towed to Faslane in Scotland for repair.

Both vessels - between them carrying about 250 sailors - were reportedly submerged and on separate missions when they crashed on February 3 or 4.

The UK Ministry of Defence refuses to comment on submarine operations but a spokesman said: "We can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

HMS Vanguard is one of four nuclear submarines operated by the British military as part of its Trident system, and one is always on deterrent patrol.

Each vessel is 150 metres long and 13 metres in diameter, and can carry up to 48 nuclear warheads on a maximum of 16 missiles.

Quite extraordinary!

Obviously there have been several instances of hunter killer subs colliding while trying to outrun each other but this is as far as I know the first instance of 2 SSBN's colliding in the open ocean. This just proves how secretive nations are about SSBN movements, even two friendly nations like Britain and France. Apparently neither sub knew that the other was in the area and the French crew seemed to think that they'd hit a "submerged container." This also proves just how stealthy these ships are that another similar sub was unable to detect it even when they were about to collide!
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
Some sad news tonight from my part of the world. :(

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Two die in 'barbaric' Army attack

Two military personnel have been shot dead during a gun attack at an Army base in County Antrim, police said.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland said two further military personnel and two civilians, all believed to be male, were were in a serious condition.

The incident took place at the Massereene Army base in Antrim, 16 miles north of Belfast, at 2140 GMT.

Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward condemned the shootings as "an act of criminal barbarism".

He added: "My thoughts are with the families of those killed and injured in this murderous attack.

"The contrast between those who serve the community and those who would destroy it could not be clearer. The people who did this will be pursued and they will never stop the political process in Northern Ireland."

A spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence described the incident as a "drive-by" shooting.

'Loud bangs'

The four injured men have all been taken to Antrim Area Hospital, about a mile away from the scene.

It is believed that there were two long busts of gunfire during the incident.

A major security operation is under way and the area surrounding the barracks, which is home to 38 Engineering Regiment, has been sealed off.

Eyewitness reports have suggested that the attackers approached the barracks in a pizza delivery van, and the victims walked into the ambush believing a fast food delivery was arriving.

One witness who lives near the base told the BBC how he looked to the sky after hearing what he thought were fireworks.

He added: "Then I heard a lot of loud bangs again, only it was a lot more than there was initially - maybe between 10 and 20.

"Then the siren at the Army barracks went off. Then all you heard was the police sirens and ambulances and there was at least six ambulances.


"There was definitely six of the ambulances and God knows how many police cars - they just came out of the police station one after the other."

In a statement, Downing Street said everything possible would be done to ensure those responsible would be brought to justice.

"This is a terrible incident that we utterly condemn and the prime minister's thoughts, first and foremost, are with the families of those killed and with those seriously injured in this attack," it continued.

Northern Ireland's First Minister and Democratic Unionist Party leader Peter Robinson offered his sympathies to the families of the victims, and said he would postpone a scheduled trip to the United States.

Mr Robinson said the attack was "terrible reminder of the events of the past".

He added: "These murders were a futile act by those who command no public support and have no prospect of success in their campaign. It will not succeed."

Ian Paisley Jnr, a DUP member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Policing Board, said the shooting could prove to be a defining moment in Northern Ireland's history.

He said: "For the last 10 years, people believed things like this happened in foreign countries, places like Basra. Unfortunately it has returned to our doorstep."

The leader of the nationalist SDLP, Mark Durkan, condemned the "murderous" attacks.

"Those who committed it are steeped in the mindset and means of past violence," he added.

"They need to understand this is not an attack on British army but the Irish people who have voted for and value above all else peaceful politics and democratic accommodation."

David Ford, the leader of the Alliance Party, said it was "inconceivable" that the attack could have been carried out by anyone other than dissident republicans.

"The important thing is that we must not see politics and the peace settlement that we have, fragile though it is, destabilised by this kind of action," he added.

No-one has so far claimed responsibility.

The attack comes shortly after Sir Hugh Orde, the chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, requested the Special Reconnaissance Regiment's help to gather intelligence on dissident republicans.

Mr Robinson said the Massereene attack vindicated his decision, which had been criticised by Sinn Fein.

In 2008, dissident republicans attempted to kill PSNI officers during separate incidents in Derry City and Dungannon, Co Tyrone.

Security forces defused a 300lb (136kg) bomb in Castlewellan, Co Down, close to a barracks in February 2009.


Sadly we thought that incidents like this belonged to the past. There had been indications that dissident republicans were planning to attack army or police personnel. The PSNI's Chief Constable revealed just a few days ago that in response to this intelligence he had requested the deployment of Army Special Forces, he was widely condemned for this by Sinn Fein but sadly we now know why he took this step. It's still not clear what happened, there are stories that the pizza delivery van involved in this may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, that may explain the 2 civilians who were seriously wounded. My thoughts go out to the families of those who died and to the wounded for a full recovery. There are going to be some major political repercussions from this but this is not the time for knee jerk reactions.

UPDATE: The police have confirmed that two of the injured are in fact the pizza delivery men. It seems that 2 separate delivery orders were phoned through to the local branch of Dominos. When the guards opened the gates to them, the gunmen fired on them.
 
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