1st Sea Lords speech this week, think it'll put the ill informed commentary into better perspective.
Requirement
The Royal Navy’s requirement for a general purpose frigate is, in the first instance, driven by the government’s commitment to maintain our current force of 19 frigates and destroyers.
The 6 Type 45 destroyers are still new in service, but our 13 Type 23 frigates are already serving beyond their original design life.
They remain capable, but to extend their lives any further is no longer viable from either an economic or an operational perspective.
Eight of those Type 23s are specifically equipped for anti-submarine warfare and these will be replaced on a one-for-one basis by the new Type 26 frigate.
As such, we look to the Type 31e to replace the remaining 5 remaining general purpose variants.
This immediately gives you an idea of both the urgency with which we view this project, and how it fits within our future fleet.
In order to continue meeting our current commitments, we need the Type 31e to fulfil routine tasks to free up the more complex Type 45 destroyers and Type 26 frigates for their specialist combat roles in support of the strategic nuclear deterrent and as part of the carrier strike group.
So although capable of handling itself in a fight, the Type 31e will be geared toward maritime security and defence engagement, including the fleet ready escort role at home, our fixed tasks in the South Atlantic, the Caribbean and the Gulf, and our NATO commitments.
These missions shape our requirements.
There is more detail in your handout but, broadly speaking, the Type 31e will need a hangar and flight deck for both a small helicopter and unmanned air vehicle, accommodation to augment the ship’s company with a variety of mission specialists as required, together with stowage for sea boats, disaster relief stores and other specialist equipment.
It will be operated by a core ships company of between 80-100 men and women and it needs to be sufficiently flexible to incorporate future developments in technology, including unmanned systems and novel weaponry as they come to the fore, so open architecture and modularity are a must.
All this points towards a credible, versatile frigate, capable of independent and sustained global operations.
Now I want to be absolutely clear about what constitutes a frigate in the eyes of the Royal Navy.
In Nelson’s time, a first rate ship like HMS Victory was a relative scarcity compared with smaller, more lightly armed frigates.
They wouldn’t take their place in the line of battle, but they were fast, manoeuvrable and flew the White Ensign in many of the far flung corners of the world where the UK had vital interests.
More recently, the navy I joined still had general purpose frigates like the Leander, Rothesay and Tribal class and, later, the Type 21s, which picked up many of the routine patrol tasks and allowed the specialist ASW frigates to focus on their core NATO role.
It was only when defence reductions at the end of the Cold War brought difficult choices that we moved to an all high end force.
So forgive the history lesson, but the point I’m making is the advent of a mixed force of Type 31 and Type 26 frigates is not a new departure for the Royal Navy, nor is it a ‘race to the bottom’; rather it marks a return to the concept of a balanced fleet.
And the Type 31e is not going to be a glorified patrol vessel or a cut price corvette. It’s going to be, as it needs to be, a credible frigate that reflects the time honoured standards and traditions of the Royal Navy.
Ambition
In order to maintain our current force levels, the first Type 31e must enter service as the as the first general purpose Type 23, HMS Argyll, leaves service in 2023.
Clearly that’s a demanding timescale, which means the development stage must be undertaken more quickly than for any comparable ship since the Second World War.
But while this programme may be initially focused on our requirements for the 2020s, we must also look to the 2030s and beyond.
You know how busy the Royal Navy is and I won’t labour the point, suffice to say international security is becoming more challenging, threats are multiplying and demands on the navy are growing.
Added to this is that, as we leave the European Union, the UK is looking to forge new trading partnerships around the world.
Put simply, Global Britain needs a global Navy to match.
Requirement
The Royal Navy’s requirement for a general purpose frigate is, in the first instance, driven by the government’s commitment to maintain our current force of 19 frigates and destroyers.
The 6 Type 45 destroyers are still new in service, but our 13 Type 23 frigates are already serving beyond their original design life.
They remain capable, but to extend their lives any further is no longer viable from either an economic or an operational perspective.
Eight of those Type 23s are specifically equipped for anti-submarine warfare and these will be replaced on a one-for-one basis by the new Type 26 frigate.
As such, we look to the Type 31e to replace the remaining 5 remaining general purpose variants.
This immediately gives you an idea of both the urgency with which we view this project, and how it fits within our future fleet.
In order to continue meeting our current commitments, we need the Type 31e to fulfil routine tasks to free up the more complex Type 45 destroyers and Type 26 frigates for their specialist combat roles in support of the strategic nuclear deterrent and as part of the carrier strike group.
So although capable of handling itself in a fight, the Type 31e will be geared toward maritime security and defence engagement, including the fleet ready escort role at home, our fixed tasks in the South Atlantic, the Caribbean and the Gulf, and our NATO commitments.
These missions shape our requirements.
There is more detail in your handout but, broadly speaking, the Type 31e will need a hangar and flight deck for both a small helicopter and unmanned air vehicle, accommodation to augment the ship’s company with a variety of mission specialists as required, together with stowage for sea boats, disaster relief stores and other specialist equipment.
It will be operated by a core ships company of between 80-100 men and women and it needs to be sufficiently flexible to incorporate future developments in technology, including unmanned systems and novel weaponry as they come to the fore, so open architecture and modularity are a must.
All this points towards a credible, versatile frigate, capable of independent and sustained global operations.
Now I want to be absolutely clear about what constitutes a frigate in the eyes of the Royal Navy.
In Nelson’s time, a first rate ship like HMS Victory was a relative scarcity compared with smaller, more lightly armed frigates.
They wouldn’t take their place in the line of battle, but they were fast, manoeuvrable and flew the White Ensign in many of the far flung corners of the world where the UK had vital interests.
More recently, the navy I joined still had general purpose frigates like the Leander, Rothesay and Tribal class and, later, the Type 21s, which picked up many of the routine patrol tasks and allowed the specialist ASW frigates to focus on their core NATO role.
It was only when defence reductions at the end of the Cold War brought difficult choices that we moved to an all high end force.
So forgive the history lesson, but the point I’m making is the advent of a mixed force of Type 31 and Type 26 frigates is not a new departure for the Royal Navy, nor is it a ‘race to the bottom’; rather it marks a return to the concept of a balanced fleet.
And the Type 31e is not going to be a glorified patrol vessel or a cut price corvette. It’s going to be, as it needs to be, a credible frigate that reflects the time honoured standards and traditions of the Royal Navy.
Ambition
In order to maintain our current force levels, the first Type 31e must enter service as the as the first general purpose Type 23, HMS Argyll, leaves service in 2023.
Clearly that’s a demanding timescale, which means the development stage must be undertaken more quickly than for any comparable ship since the Second World War.
But while this programme may be initially focused on our requirements for the 2020s, we must also look to the 2030s and beyond.
You know how busy the Royal Navy is and I won’t labour the point, suffice to say international security is becoming more challenging, threats are multiplying and demands on the navy are growing.
Added to this is that, as we leave the European Union, the UK is looking to forge new trading partnerships around the world.
Put simply, Global Britain needs a global Navy to match.
Jura The idiot
General
Yesterday at 9:48 PM
in the tweet
MPs around the country are keen that their local yards get a slice of the Type 31 Frigate programme
... and now noticed this CGI:
in the tweet
MPs around the country are keen that their local yards get a slice of the Type 31 Frigate programme
Well it would be a nice FFG if they go for most of what they are calling the high end systems.Yesterday at 9:48 PM
... and now noticed this CGI:
in the tweet
MPs around the country are keen that their local yards get a slice of the Type 31 Frigate programme
IE 16 VLS cells, a 127mm main gun, 30mm secondary guns,the eight SSMs, etc.
But when they start talking about an 80 man crew and modularity, I start immediately worrying about an LCS fiasco for the RN. I hope they can avoid wasting ten years figuring out what every naval engineer and personnel who had a lick of sense was trying to tell them all of that time.
Now we may get something decent...but we should never have had to suffer through such incompetence and I ope the RN will not.
Jura The idiot
General
what was it they tried "to tell them all of that time"?
I've been seeing LCS chest-thumping for four years (and I missed the previous ten or so hahaha), and instead of an assessment where the LCS Program is heading (which is to nowhere, just providing jobs for two shipyards to build hulls to be left almost unarmed), I've been seeing this 'eventually', 'ultimately', 'as the platform matures', 'accelerating learning curve', 'capabilities coming online', 'undoubtedly', 'will' etc. etc. WISHFUL THINKING
now (almost ten years after the first LCS has been commissioned to the USN), billions in 'sidelined' LCSs are a small problem (it's PORK anyway), but a bigger problem is deployable ships are missing
Last edited:
Jura...you have been hearing me and @bd popeye and others on this forum echo what "they" have been telling them.
ie...Dispense with the modularity BS. Put a normal sized crew on it. Have it armored for high intensity combat operations, arm it sufficiently with ASMs, more AAW, a bigger gun, don't make speed more important than combat capability, etc., etc.
Many many naval personnel, former high ranking officers, and intelligence officers, and professional naval analysts have been saying this the whole time.
I believe if they will simply do what they indicated 18 months ago it would be the right thing, especially if they also build a dedicated group of 30+ actual FFGs. IOW, take the current committed LCS builds and uparm and upgrade them as they said they would, then build the new frigates.
We shall see if that is what they do...but there is no doubt it is what they need to do.
If they would, the could use the resulting Freedom class for CSG escort, SAG, and show the flag duties and the Independence class for Phibron support and escort, for mine laying, etc, and then use the actual FGs like an FFG ought to be used.
ie...Dispense with the modularity BS. Put a normal sized crew on it. Have it armored for high intensity combat operations, arm it sufficiently with ASMs, more AAW, a bigger gun, don't make speed more important than combat capability, etc., etc.
Many many naval personnel, former high ranking officers, and intelligence officers, and professional naval analysts have been saying this the whole time.
I believe if they will simply do what they indicated 18 months ago it would be the right thing, especially if they also build a dedicated group of 30+ actual FFGs. IOW, take the current committed LCS builds and uparm and upgrade them as they said they would, then build the new frigates.
We shall see if that is what they do...but there is no doubt it is what they need to do.
If they would, the could use the resulting Freedom class for CSG escort, SAG, and show the flag duties and the Independence class for Phibron support and escort, for mine laying, etc, and then use the actual FGs like an FFG ought to be used.
Jura The idiot
General
not sure what you meant "they indicated 18 months ago" Jeff ... now I looked into history a little bit:
Jan 20, 2016
(the Jane's link is broken above, but fortunately the article was posted by a member:
#1221 steve_rolfe, Dec 19, 2015)
so, the USN was told like half a decade ago to get serious, and what the USN did then was a PR STUNT: so called beefed up LCS "unveiled" in the end of 2014;
one year after this PR STUNT the previous administration quote unquote trimmed the LCS numbers, which of course has had no impact on the LCS procurement as the CURRENT administration got involved in LCS PORK:
Jul 10, 2017
what recently happened was the USN called for FFG(X) proposals:
Aug 18, 2017
... and I haven't heard anything since then
for me this is UNBELIEVABLE MESS full of 'a new paradigm' USN kidding itself and its fanbois (and I keep this mess documented LOL!)
well it's the UK Thread here, so I briefly finish by telling you the USN spends billions on ships as useful as the Zumwalts, and while the billions spent this way support the shipbuilding industry, they're missing elsewhere
Last edited:
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Jura The idiot
General
Friday at 9:03 PM
of the model, wondering if that design is worth the plastic used for this model
now noticed the pictures (apparently from ) in Twitter
of the model, wondering if that design is worth the plastic used for this model
