U.S. military says copter down in Iraq

Understand Rpgs have about the same range as small arms approx 300ft,but they are are unguided so the operaters would have to be incredibly well trained to keep up this sort of kill rate,again,sorry to bang on about this,but would require some sort of ambush to set up.
With regard to foreign object damage,arent helicopters fitted with some sort of filter to keep out this sort of thing?

Yes,probably a lot of MANPADS on black market,prob from old Soviet republics etc.Personally I see it as being shoulder launched missiles(if I have the distinction right,apologies if they are the same thing),as there is probably a lot of hidden caches about Iraq,also theres my old fav,Iran,as its in there interset to play for time so they can develop their nuke programme.

lcortez said:

I see it as being shoulder launched missiles(if I have the distinction right,apologies if they are the same thing)

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MANPADS = MAN Portable Air-Defence System, these are commonly shoulder launched

sorry to bang on about this,but would require some sort of ambush to set up.

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Sure, I think downing a moving copter with a RPG requires a lot of luck. I could believe it happen once in a while, but as said with five in two weeks, it becomes incredible.
Being rather stationary for whatever reason can be probelatic. Remember "Black Hawk down"? Was it really that the one copter hovering to set down soldiers was downed by a RPG that struck it's tail-rotor?

With regard to foreign object damage,arent helicopters fitted with some sort of filter to keep out this sort of thing?

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Depends on the enviroment the helos are operating. For instance in Iraq you would think they would have those screens on. But in most pics I see the screens are not present.

Not sure about the Somalia downings,but according to the BBC,Iraqi insurgents have been boasting about a newly acquired anti air capability,but wont elaborate on it,whatever it is, it must be better than the older SA -7 that the insurgents are credited with using with limited succes inthe past.Again ac to BBC 55 helicopters downed prior to these recent 5,half of which are attributed to enemy action (22 or 23 over 3 years),or 1 every 2 weeks approx,5 in 2 weeks a significant increase!

ps:Apologies for MANPAD thing

This may be the work of the sinister SA-16 missile. During the First Gulf War quite a few coalition aircraft were downed by the SA-16's. And there are many countries that have SA-16's in operational use as well as some guerilla movements. So I don't think SA-16's would be that hard to come by. Out of the five helicopters shot down recently, only one was shot down by an RPK machine gun and that's because it was a civilian helicopter.

I doubt this is the work of Iran. It doesn't make sense for Iran to be helping Sunni insurgents in Iraq as they are mostly compromised of ex-Baathists, Iran's biggest enemy. People seem to underestimate the skill of the former Iraqi army guys quite a bit. Do remember that this army did fight against Iran for nearly eight years so they still have quite a few capable officers and generals.

But how low would they have to be for an RPG or other small arms fire to be accurate?

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We sometimes practised "air-defence" firing with our assault rifles and at least in finnish army there were dedicated commands to control this sort of shooting...but however when we asked from our trainers would it be anyway effective, he just laughed and said no, it's as usefull as to shoot to clear (and empty) blue sky without any targets. In fact even the anti-aircraft artillery mens with ZU-23 where told that their task was not to hit to the planes but give suspensive fire and try to force the planes change their direction....

So if the Iraqians did shot that helicopter down, it most likely wasen't small arms fire (or then those got some really lucky shots)

So if the Iraqians did shot that helicopter down, it most likely wasen't small arms fire (or then those got some really lucky shots)

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Thanks Golly. It's always great to have the knowledge of actual military experience. Either in training or actual combat.

When Gn Pace mentions small arms I think of handguns and over the shoulder weapons. That includes RPG's. ..I'm not thinking of missiles when he speaks. But maybe in his way of speaking that is just what he meant.

These MANPADS are very bad news for US troops;

When the security sweeps begin, the insurgents could set up a kill boxes (multiple missiles or even RPGs targeted to small area from different sides). Lure the enemy into the box with decoy and they're almost done.

Mujahideen used this in soviet/afghan war with high success. It's very hard to counter, especially if the decoy is a real target (like platoon of suicidical jihadis) ambushing friendly ground forces.

Killboxes are exactly the sort of thing I was alluding to !
By the 'sweeps', I presume you mean the 'surge' in Baghdad thats due to start soon (not sure if already started),in this instance they may not be necessary as insurgents could hide on upper floors of buildings,rooftops etc to attack helicopters,would be very effective againts ground troops, Strykers etc

lcortez said:

insurgents could hide on upper floors of buildings,rooftops etc to attack helicopters

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From watching it seems that the initial missile ejector charge is so small that the missile could probably be shot from indoors.

That way, the weapon operator would be almost undetectable before a launch, especially if he uses a harmless-looking noncombatant as a scout watching out from the windows. Talk about a surprise.