U.S. 'exaggerates' China's defense

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Spike

Banned Idiot
Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere. From CNN:

U.S. 'exaggerates' China's defense
POSTED: 0306 GMT (1106 HKT), November 30, 2006

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The United States has been exaggerating China's nuclear clout in a process that could lock the two into a Cold War-style arms race, two arms-control advocacy groups said in a report on Thursday.

The Defense Department and U.S. intelligence agencies have portrayed Chinese weapons developments as more threatening than warranted, to justify building a new generation of weapons, according to the study by the Federation of American Scientists and the Natural Resources Defense Council.

"The report's main finding is that the Pentagon and others routinely highlight specific incidents out of context that inaccurately portray a looming Chinese threat," the groups said in a statement.

Specifically, they said, the Defense Department and U.S. intelligence agencies had been "embellishing China's submarine and long-range missile capabilities."

China, in turn, views U.S. arms upgrades as a reason for modernizing its arsenal, said the 250-page report, which is based on an analysis of declassified and unclassified U.S. government documents as well as commercial satellite images of Chinese installations.

That could pitch the two into "a dangerous action-and-reaction competition reminiscent of the Cold War," the two groups said.

"Military planners always need a rationale -- a real or potential danger -- for why they must have new weapons or new strategies and plans," said the study, "Chinese Nuclear Forces and U.S. Nuclear War Planning."

"With the dissolution of the Soviet Union, which occupied that role for almost 50 years, the United States has turned its attention to China to help fill the vacuum," it said.

The report faulted China for cloaking its nuclear forces in secrecy amid what it portrayed as a U.S. government scare campaign bolstered by conservative media and think tanks.

The Pentagon and the office of the Director of National Intelligence had no immediate comment.

'Realistic picture'
Larry Wortzel, outgoing chairman of a congressionally created bipartisan panel that studies U.S.-China security issues, said he thought the Pentagon had painted a "realistic picture of what China is doing in the nuclear arena."

Beijing has been developing new generations of mobile ballistic missiles, experimenting with maneuverable warheads and multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles as well as "developing countermeasures that make its nuclear force a more serious threat," he said in reply to a query from Reuters.

The U.S. arsenal of about 10,000 nuclear weapons dwarfed China's roughly 200 and would continue to do so, the report said.

In a long-range planning study put out in February, the Pentagon voiced alarm at China's investments in "sophisticated land and sea-based (nuclear strike) systems" and said Beijing's buildup put a premium on developing U.S. forces "capable of sustained operations at great distances into denied areas."

China has about 20 ballistic missiles capable of reaching the continental United States; the United States has more than 830 missiles -- most with multiple warheads -- that can hit China, it added.

"China is no Soviet Union," said Robert Norris, a Natural Resources Defense Council analyst and a report co-author. He said the Pentagon had been using China to justify buying new missiles, destroyers, submarines and fighter planes.

Hans Kristensen, project director at the Federation of American Scientists and the report's lead author, told Reuters, "The hype has occurred, as far as we can see, in the assessments of the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal, predicting and reporting when new systems will be deployed, and in 'cherry-picking' dramatic new developments taken out of context that overstate a threat."

"Sophisticated sea based systems"? Does China have subs capable of launching nukes into the continental US? Do they even have subs that would make it across the ocean?
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere. From CNN:



"Sophisticated sea based systems"? Does China have subs capable of launching nukes into the continental US? Do they even have subs that would make it across the ocean?

Only one is the Xia class submarines at the moment, and they can do it from the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The Han nuclear boats can make it across the ocean, as they have the range, but being undetected is a completely different story. The Chinese, as we all know, are working on replacements for the Xia and Han class subs.
 

mvmccorry

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The American ruling class have an agenda of neo-conservative global domination, propoganda the tool to fix the minds of the people, with all the nukes in the world it's M.A.D to even consider a nuclear war. spys and disinformation are surly greater weapons than open war. nukes are old news, a 200 megatonn tidal wave would take out alot land. conventional warfare is replaced with tech industies.

suppose a genetically engineered virus is set on the enemy, the side with the cure could walk into the enemy country and start over like nothing ever happened.

any secret made public must be worthless or propoganda.

china has inter continental ballistic subs right!?

Edit: right
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The American ruling class have an agenda of neo-conservative global domination, propoganda the tool to fix the minds of the people, with all the nukes in the world it's M.A.D to even consider a nuclear war. spys and disinformation are surly greater weapons than open war. nukes are old news, a 200 megatonn tidal wave would take out alot land. conventional warfare is replaced with tech industies.

suppose a genetically engineered virus is set on the enemy, the side with the cure could walk into the enemy country and start over like nothing ever happened.

any secret made public must be worthless or propoganda.

china has inter continental ballistic subs right!?

Edit: right

My goodness. I find your comments to be cynical to the extreme. Yes, the USA pours untold billions of dollars into genetic research annually. But to espouse theories that the purposes of it are for creating genetic mutations capable of wiping out people of other races is totally off the mark. It's also a complete misrepresentation of America. OK, you hate the USA, the Bush Administration, and 'neocons'. But claiming that the USA and it's taxpayers pour these huge amounts of money for this type of evil is insulting.

And also. Nuclear weapons may be old news, but they're still mighty effective even today. And they're not going away any time soon, despite our wishes to see them go. I agree that labratories are where the winners come from, but in reality, it's always been that way. ;) Nothing is different today.
 

mvmccorry

Just Hatched
Registered Member
It's also a complete misrepresentation of America. OK, you hate the USA, the Bush Administration, and 'neocons'. But claiming that the USA and it's taxpayers pour these huge amounts of money for this type of evil is insulting.

since when have America tax payers had the right to decide what the CIA does? never. it's a contradiction that an organisation has the right to do whatever it wants, overthrow governments etc and still the taxpayers have the "we" mentality. the CIA may be considered as representing American interests but it does not represent yours as an American citizen so dont get all insulted. Nationism may blind some people from the truth of a balenced moral code of conduct but it's not an insult. we as citizens have no power to affect the mega rich. they own us. As a UK citizen i love this country but that does not mean i blindly agree with whatever Tony Blair says and does, just because i hear the national anthem in the back ground.

the real power behind the information is shrouded in mystery and rarly in the public domain. within 100 years people will be selecting the genes of their children. do you think a government so besotted with global domination wouldn't dream of something like a virus attack? or a clone army? we can agree to differ on that. personally i dont hate America, i do hate hysteria and flag worship.

after WWII it was discovered the "evil" nazis had been testing on jews, so what does america do with the scientists?? give them a whole building to further the reasearch. and here we are with the human genome. great!? these scientists have the rational that their actions do not nessaserily require a moral context, and who cares, it's all in the name of progress, right.
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
after WWII it was discovered the "evil" nazis had been testing on jews, so what does america do with the scientists?? give them a whole building to further the reasearch. and here we are with the human genome. great!? these scientists have the rational that their actions do not nessaserily require a moral context, and who cares, it's all in the name of progress, right.


The American people would never tolerate wholesale genocide against any other nation. Most civilized people wouldn't. I find it insulting because it mischaracterizes not only our representative form of government, but our national interests as a whole. You're right in that there are black budgets for military research here in America. But you would never see anyone on Earth, including the American people themselves support the wiping out of other races for the sole purposes of your idea of "world domination". This would create chaos and panic on a scale of unmentionable proportions. I don't care who you think would actually carry it out. It would most likely cause the collapse of the offending nation itself. It's this kind of false mischaracterization and conspiracy theory which irritate me. Especially because you have no proof whatsoever that this type of activity is taking place, but yet you say it as fact to create an aura of hatred toward the "evil" USA. I love the USA, but I'm no blind flag waver either.

Nice flame-bait by the way. :mad: Sorry I took the hook in retrospect.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Weaponized pathogens that attack specific genetic profiles are already a reality. This isn't the place to discuss it, but if anyone is intersted, you can google Dr. Daan Goosen, Dedi Zucker, Dr. David Kelly, Regma Biotech, Vladimir Pasechnik, Benito Que, Don Wiley, Kamovtjan Alibekov/Ken Alibek, Hadron Advanced Biosystems, etc.

But those weapons are high priority only for small, monoethnic nations, or small nations with ruling ethnic minority. Large, powerful countries with multi-ethnic population and tens of thousands of nuclear weapons don't really need to use it. The Pentagon spend $$ in biological weapon R&D, but mostly for defensive purposes.

I can point to one incident that started some of the "America the geneic warfare terriorist" hoopla. Back in 1990s the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) funded the development of terminator seeds. These are crops that produce sterile second-generation seeds.

Normally, farmers reserve a portion of their crops as seedling for the next season. By selling them higher-yield genetically modified "terminator" crop seeds, the farmer will have to come back to you for new seeds every season. Makes perfect business sense, but not really ethical and caused some people to claim that America is seeking to control the world's food supply. That is, either kotow to uncle sam or we starve you to death.

70%-100% (varies by crop) of the world's genetically modified crop seeds are sold by the American company Monsanto. They bought the terminator seed technology from USDA in 1998 and was going to commercialize it, but after much public pressure they decided to drop it completely. They already have a dominate/controlling position in the genetically engineered crop seed market anyway, no reason to rock the boat.

So, FEAR NOT, America is not trying to starve the world into submission (you can always grow potato instead of corn anyway), nor is America trying to build ethno-bombs to wipe out everyone else, which is really bad for business if you kill off your customers.

Now back to our regular scheduled programming...
 
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mvmccorry

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Freedom of expression is a beautiful thing.

how about the red indians?

you dont have to answer that genocide, our ancesters did alot of bad things and we are not to account for them. it's good to go off topic if thats where things end up. thanks for jumping in. Americans have done a load of great things for the world. the tooth brush! :D

im a Darwinian, we are related, and futher down the line we are related to all mammals, and every other living thing on earth. species constantly evoling though mechanisms the scientists still dont know yet, natural selection, random mutation etc. it's beautiful that health and education have been forwarded though war, europeans constantly striving to beat each other in the past greatly contributed to making this modern world, the wonderful yet evil place it is. surly the species must split again, unless we can stop evolution and create a eutopia. unlikly.

thanks

matt
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Well, now Matt, as a new member you propaply havent yet get to the point in your forum scrolling where this little thrad called forum rules and regulations. I strongly suggest that you take a look of them http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2572
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=1325
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/announcement.php?f=6

after some joyfull reading, You can take look on your past postings and then figure how they fit inside our code of conduct....

Hope I dont need to interfere to this one in future

Gollevainen, the Super moderator
 

Spike

Banned Idiot
Ok I don't know how this thread suddenly devolved into world-domination/genocide rhetoric, but please stop it 'cuz that will close down the thread.

Back on topic: how much funding is currently given to the US nuclear weapons program? Obviously it should have come off it's Cold War levels. China apparently is not very concerned by the fact that the US can wipe it off the face of the planet and then some. 200 warheads? Only 20 which can reach the continental US? Compared with 10,000 and 830 which can hit China... Perhaps it has come to the point where MAD is no longer relevent in diplomacy between major powers, as is evident by China's lack of concern in balancing their numbers of warheads with the US.
 
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