Trump 2.0 official thread

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
I can understand that many Americans find it hard to grasp how abruptly the situation has escalated to this state—the sudden, total decoupling between China and the U.S. For countless people, whether in America or China, this has caused profound confusion and disbelief. Many hope this is temporary, that the two nations might resume their former coexistence. Others expect a gradual, managed decoupling of trade, allowing both sides time to adapt incrementally.

I must emphasize: had the events of April 2nd not occurred—that is, had the U.S. not initiated this war against China—many within my circle (those long focused on Sino-U.S. rivalry) would likely have agreed that a gentle, phased decoupling was inevitable. The resulting pain would have been far milder.

But after April 2nd, when Trump fired the first shot, everything changed. A return to the past is now impossible—even if America desired it, China no longer does. The rupture is irreversible.

I reiterate: the core issue is that the Western world lacks a true sense of historical continuity. China, as a 5,000-year unbroken civilization, has long discerned the trajectory of Sino-U.S. relations. Before April 2nd, China harbored doubts. After April 2nd, clarity emerged—because China recognizes historical patterns and their consequences.

What you and many others fail to grasp is what truly unfolded after April 2nd. You saw America’s attack, but not China’s counterstrike—a response invisible in Western media or even this forum. Once China retaliates, there is no turning back.

China has now begun dismantling the foundations of U.S. hegemony. This is not about U.S. Treasury bonds (China has yet to fully deploy its leverage there). Instead, China is systematically deconstructing the mechanisms by which America controls and stratifies nations globally. These changes will not yield immediate results—such efforts demand over a decade of sustained action. A new world order is being forged.


Westerners, especially Americans, see today’s powerful China—its technology, housing, or culinary life—and cling to the delusion that China has stolen vast wealth from the U.S. Many assume that for every $10 theyspend, China pockets $5-$7. In reality, China typically earns just $1−$2 from that $10, which must cover raw materials, processing losses, and labor. The actual profit often amounts to a mere $0.05−$0.10.

It is on such margins that China has accumulated wealth and developed into what it is today. Yet Americans still accuse China of theft, demanding further concessions. They insist China not only refrain from profiting but subsidize the U.S. at a loss.

Americans fail to ask: If China cannot even make a profit, why would it continue trading with you? China could partner with others, letting them profit from America’s higher costs. But the U.S. rejects this, imposing secondary tariffs to force global decoupling from China. Washington seeks not just to halt trade with China but to isolate it entirely. Recall how the U.S. handled Japan: once Japan shifted industries to South Korea, Taiwan, mainland China, and Southeast Asia, America backed off. Japan sustained growth for 30 years through overseas industrial chains. Now, the U.S. denies China even this pathway.

Do Americans not realize this is a death sentence for others? As I’ve stated, China, as a hyper-scale nation, prioritizes stability—a monumental task requiring no expansionist ambitions, which would only hasten collapse. Yet America, desperate to preserve hegemony, aims to destroy China. Social chaos in a nation of China’s size could kill 20-80% of its population—equivalent to nuclear annihilation.

What do you think Chinese people will do once they grasp this? We will not beg. We will fight with guns. Eliminating the enemy is paramount. This is the reality. The events of April 2nd (and related actions) confirmed China’s fears: America will never tolerate its peaceful rise. Washington seeks China’s total destruction, dismissing its actions as mere “minor losses.” When America used smallpox-infected blankets to exterminate Native Americans, slaughtering tens of millions, it dismissed this as a “minor mistake,” later absolved by Thanksgiving turkeys and priestly confessions—all deaths deemed “God’s will.”

Of course, most ordinary people—Chinese or American—do not think this deeply. Many Americans simply want easier lives and revived dreams, never intending to harm billions of Chinese.

Those truly pulling the strings understand the stakes. Even Wall Street’s financiers may not grasp that U.S. policies threaten China’s survival; they merely view its 1.4 billion people as a “blood bag” for their profiteering.

See this clearly, and you realize China has no choice. America’s tactical retreats are merely setups for deadlier strikes. China will not yield. It will retaliate harder. Only when America suffers true agony—losing half its vitality—will it learn. Only then will it abandon delusions of victory and reckless war-mongering.

I grieve for ordinary Chinese and Americans caught in this crossfire. Such suffering is unnecessary. Yet sometimes, it is the price paid.

Forget returning to the past (neither Americans nor Chinese desire it). History’s wheels have turned irreversibly. As a Chinese saying goes: “An arrow shot cannot be retrieved.” China’s new trajectory is clear: to forge a world with diminished U.S. influence, severing Western-led control over the global system (a neo-colonial order), and usher in a genuine multipolar era.
I subscribe to the John Mearsheimer school of logic when it comes to international politics. While trade can and should be a win-win affair, power is a zero sum game. China and the U.S. are destined to be antagonistic being the number one power and the number two power. For the record, I believe that China has already surpassed the U.S. as a world power and the facade of the American empire will come down in the coming decade or two. The biggest contributing factor to this American downfall has been the actions of the Americans. Given the trends that has been firmly established for decades, own goals by us Americans will not only continue but be more and more frequent in the future. So what you said about ushering in a new era has been and continues to happen.

Emotions aside, this change in position does not happen in one day. As the Chinese saying goes, a starving camel is still bigger than a horse. Putting myself in the position of the Chinese making government policies, the best action is to extract a very heavy price from the U.S. and continue their march to the top. This trade war, while doing tremendous damage the the U.S., is not a knockout blow. I understand your sense of anger and longing for justice. I completely empathize with your emotions. Unfortunately, justice is secondary to hard power. The U.S., with all the wounds, self inflicted or otherwise, is still a very powerful country. Please note that continue trading with the U.S. does not mean the two countries are buddies. That boat had sailed many presidents ago. Continue trading in a stable environment is the quickest way for China to ascend to the top.

A little appreciated fact, while the U.S. is the biggest naval power in the world, the Chinese is actually the biggest beneficiary of the sea trade. To me, it is all but certain that the U.S. has already lost the trade war. This means in the future, the U.S. will be very circumscribed when it comes to taking actions against China. So you will end up with the U.S., the world's biggest naval power, aiding the rise of China while unable act against the Chinese.

The Chinese should be very afraid of one thing, what happens after they get to the top? Just as every empire will crumble from their own hubris when there is no longer an adversary to fight, the Chinese may face a similar situation after they crest. The government should devote significant resources now to think about this issue and how to prevent it from happening.
 

Barefoot

New Member
Registered Member
If the US intends to "contain" China then the decoupling has to happen, right?

They have to start making IPhones in India, dig up coal reserves and look at synthetics (a la IG Farben 1930s) collect microchips from used washing machines (or was it disc drives from computers?). It might seem bad now but of course it will be much much worse if they dont do it.

If they intened to get to the point where push comes to shove and militarily prevent Chinese ships traversing the Suez, Panama and maybe even the Persian Gulf, and so on, then they have to divest away from China/Taiwan/etc first.

Europe being "at war" with Russia for decades is a bonus, unless Russia completey betrays China and joins US. Same sort of situ with Iran.

The big players are scrambling for position, the clock is ticking, each playing for time in their own way, with their own specific needs looking for advantage, pretending, feigning, working to their own timeline.

It is often the case that the amount of violence is dependent on the amount of resistence. How much are you willing to be violated before you physically resist. How much can you resist before the violation becomes significanty more violent. I'm thinking of my reading of Europe in the 30s early 40s - it seemed inevitable, the only question unanswered was exactly when/who/where.

I think Trump's "job" is to decouple no matter the cost, not to pull the trigger on WW3. (The US can take their time with the Houthis, for example - because it is part of a much larger plan in the making - but eradicate them they will)

China being able to convince the US of a win - win scenario/outcome is not likely, that would be the equivalent of finding a cure for narcissism, and as good as the Chinese are i dont think that is possible (but we can hope).
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I subscribe to the John Mearsheimer school of logic when it comes to international politics. While trade can and should be a win-win affair, power is a zero sum game. China and the U.S. are destined to be antagonistic being the number one power and the number two power. For the record, I believe that China has already surpassed the U.S. as a world power and the facade of the American empire will come down in the coming decade or two. The biggest contributing factor to this American downfall has been the actions of the Americans. Given the trends that has been firmly established for decades, own goals by us Americans will not only continue but be more and more frequent in the future. So what you said about ushering in a new era has been and continues to happen.
Most Chinese people do not dislike John Mearsheimer—in fact, many even somewhat admire him. I’m among them. Yet I disagree with one aspect of his views, as do many Chinese scholars. We believe the world can achieve win-win development. Our admiration for him stems from his intellectual honesty—he speaks truths unvarnished. We welcome disagreements, for bridging divides across cultures demands sustained dialogue and mutual understanding. When he (and you) truly grasp China’s history, culture, and strategic mindset, it will become clear why we see coexistence as possible. Your belief that Sino-U.S. conflict is irreconcilable—framed as an inevitable clash between the reigning power and its challenger—is shaped by your cultural lens. That is your worldview, not ours.

I agree partially with your assertion: China will inevitably ascend to preeminence, while the U.S. will decline. China’s rise stems from its scale and size, coupled with cultural traditions that have honed the core competencies of a great power. Any nation possessing these attributes could claim a seat at the table. America’s problem is self-inflicted: it has squandered its advantages through repeated missteps, thus dooming its reign.

There’s no need to fear a post-hegemonic America. It need only adapt to new rules. One such rule is critical: no nation will—or should—replicate America’s former dominance (the “America First” paradigm). The world detests that model; no one desires its return, least of all China.

Remember my words: Aspiring to become a superpower wielding supreme authority is sheer folly. Such ambition accelerates an empire’s demise. The Chinese, heirs to a 5,000-year civilization, are no fools—especially those steering national governance. None would pursue an imperial model that shortens their nation’s lifespan.

Emotions aside, this change in position does not happen in one day. As the Chinese saying goes, a starving camel is still bigger than a horse. Putting myself in the position of the Chinese making government policies, the best action is to extract a very heavy price from the U.S. and continue their march to the top. This trade war, while doing tremendous damage the the U.S., is not a knockout blow. I understand your sense of anger and longing for justice. I completely empathize with your emotions. Unfortunately, justice is secondary to hard power. The U.S., with all the wounds, self inflicted or otherwise, is still a very powerful country. Please note that continue trading with the U.S. does not mean the two countries are buddies. That boat had sailed many presidents ago. Continue trading in a stable environment is the quickest way for China to ascend to the top.
Trust me, most Chinese people are not as tense or angry as you assume. You might think I am, but my concern is your miscalculation—of China’s resolve and intentions. You must break free from preset assumptions and rethink.

As Professor Gao Zhikai noted: “For 5,000 years, China thrived without America. It will thrive for another 5,000 years without America. Neither needs the other to survive.”

Short-term Sino-U.S. relations will remain strained, primarily because America refuses to confront its own flaws. China cannot yield, as compromise would embolden the U.S. to escalate demands, worsening tensions. Over the past 7-8 years, America has repeatedly proven this: any concession is temporary, inviting greater aggression.

Only by inflicting deep, tangible pain on America can China force it to soberly reassess. Without this, dialogue is futile—mere theater for humiliation.

As for U.S. military prowess, especially naval dominance: rest assured, many of us dismiss it. China possesses methods to collapse U.S. military power but refrains from deploying them.

In China, many jokingly call Russians a "martial nation," but Russian scholars retort: "Compared to the Chinese, Russians are amateurs." When Chinese hear this, they chuckle inwardly, thinking: "The Russians are shrewd—they’ve earned their status as a global pole."

To China, advanced weaponry is but one facet of strength. America’s current arsenal holds no technological edge—not even numerical superiority.

In Chinese discourse, “strong” (强) and “large” (大) are distinct. Russia is “small but strong”; America is “large but weak.” True strength lies in choosing formidable opponents. Russia’s “strength” stems from confronting NATO (even with its bungled Ukraine war). America, however, only bullies weaker adversaries—like a “street thug” beating nursing homes and kindergartens. A Chinese doggerel mocks this:
“Punching the elderly in South Mountain,
Kicking toddlers in North Sea,
Shouting in the morgue:
‘Any dead dare defy me?’”


America’s wars target weaklings—opponents China and Russia disdain. Fighting such foes brings no honor, only shame. Imagine a heavyweight boxer fighting featherweights: it’s either propaganda or self-degradation. Does America not grasp this?

You deem U.S. naval power formidable? Only because China has not truly acted. Look at the Houthis: their anti-ship capabilities mirror China’s 1990s tech. If China openly armed U.S.-sanctioned nations, America’s maritime hegemony would crumble.

China’s anti-ship ballistic missiles (ASBMs) already exceed 5,000 km ranges. Technically, establishing 10,000+ km maritime strike capabilities is feasible (military research papers confirm this).

Thus, overstate not U.S. power. China has no interest in challenging its hegemony—unless provoked. Let America exhaust itself playing “global cop.” China cares not for geopolitical quagmires; it’s content watching America squander its imperial vitality. China’s real stance: “Be the ‘leader’ if you must—just don’t drag us down or target us.”
A little appreciated fact, while the U.S. is the biggest naval power in the world, the Chinese is actually the biggest beneficiary of the sea trade. To me, it is all but certain that the U.S. has already lost the trade war. This means in the future, the U.S. will be very circumscribed when it comes to taking actions against China. So you will end up with the U.S., the world's biggest naval power, aiding the rise of China while unable act against the Chinese.
When will Americans realize that the era of imperialism is long gone? Do they truly believe global trade requires the protection of the U.S. Navy? To the Chinese, America’s naval force has never been a guardian of commerce but a tool to reshape geopolitical landscapes in its favor—overthrowing nations (to secure client states) and asserting maritime control. None of this serves "trade."

The modern world is deeply interconnected. Every nation trades to improve its people’s lives. If trade flows freely and populations are fed, who would threaten shipping routes?

Why do the Houthis target maritime assets in the Middle East? To plunder wealth? No—it’s a response to Israel’s prolonged atrocities in Gaza. They aim to block support for Israel. Do they harass ordinary cargo ships? No.

Thus, today’s world needs no U.S. military to "protect" sea lanes. When America claims to safeguard trade, it does so not for China or others but for itself. U.S.-backed wars provoke retaliation against its own shipping routes, necessitating armed escorts.

From China’s perspective, the solution is straightforward:

  • Foster robust trade ties with all nations.
  • Build channels for dialogue.
  • Collaborate with neighboring countries to resolve disputes.
  • Assist others in addressing challenges.
To the Chinese, free trade requires no naval escorts, let alone the illusion that the U.S. Navy protects China’s trade corridors. Treat others with goodwill, and they’ll reciprocate. Occasional disruptions (rare as they are) seldom demand naval intervention. This is the fundamental divide between China and America.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Chinese should be very afraid of one thing, what happens after they get to the top? Just as every empire will crumble from their own hubris when there is no longer an adversary to fight, the Chinese may face a similar situation after they crest. The government should devote significant resources now to think about this issue and how to prevent it from happening.
The reality is far simpler than you imagine. If China truly ascends to global leadership, it will strive to forge a fairer international order—one where geopolitical conflicts diminish because nations prioritize balanced development. People everywhere demand food security, decent housing, and dignified work (low-stress jobs that sustain middle-class lifestyles). If most countries achieve the prosperity and modernity China enjoys today, would interstate strife persist?

This is the duty of a global leader: not to build a system that parasitically enriches itself at others’ expense (as America’s model does), but to create frameworks where all nations thrive. Only when societies attain widespread wealth can domestic stability flourish—women walk safely at night, night economies boom, and citizens afford global travel to appreciate diverse cultures. History proves this: China’s dynastic cycles repeatedly show that good governance fosters these outcomes, while missteps plunge populations into misery.

Thus, under Chinese leadership, the goal is to uplift every nation outside China—resolving conflicts through shared progress. No more extractive systems (America’s failed example); instead, an era where Asia (Southeast Asia, Central Asia, India, Pakistan), Africa, Latin America, and traditional powers (U.S., Europe, Japan, Russia, Middle East) coexist as equals.

This vision is called the Community with a Shared Future for Mankind. Some may label it “Chinese-style communism”—but do not conflate it with your textbook definitions. To the Chinese, communism remains an abstract ideal, achievable only through hyper-abundant material wealth distributed equitably to all. Over the past two decades, China demonstrated this logic: economic growth slashed crime (theft, robbery, rape), boosted social trust, and elevated civic morality.

Prosperity breeds stability, stability nurtures ethics. In China’s view, communism arrives when material abundance and spiritual enlightenment converge—when robots and AI (like "lights-out factories") mass-produce low-cost goods, freeing humanity to pursue knowledge and moral refinement.

You may ask: “What happens if robots steal jobs?” The answer lies in systemic reform. America’s failure stems not from lack of wealth but its concentration among elites. True leadership redistributes prosperity to uplift the marginalized—a feat America’s structure cannot accomplish.

Admittedly, my vision is imperfect and distant (30-50 years). Just two years ago, I dismissed communism’s feasibility. But I offer this: global leadership need not rely on stoking geopolitical crises for self-interest.

China proposes a new paradigm: leadership measured not by coercing vassal states or dominating rivals, but by lifting impoverished nations into modernity. Let competition pivot to this metric. If the U.S., India, Russia, Europe, or any nation outperforms China in empowering others, China will gladly crown them leaders.

In this new world, China seeks no hegemony. It desires a system where any nation capable of guiding humanity forward can lead. Under such rules, even if China isn’t the “sole leader,” it will still benefit. That suffices.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The reality is far simpler than you imagine. If China truly ascends to global leadership, it will strive to forge a fairer international order—one where geopolitical conflicts diminish because nations prioritize balanced development. People everywhere demand food security, decent housing, and dignified work (low-stress jobs that sustain middle-class lifestyles). If most countries achieve the prosperity and modernity China enjoys today, would interstate strife persist?

This is the duty of a global leader: not to build a system that parasitically enriches itself at others’ expense (as America’s model does), but to create frameworks where all nations thrive. Only when societies attain widespread wealth can domestic stability flourish—women walk safely at night, night economies boom, and citizens afford global travel to appreciate diverse cultures. History proves this: China’s dynastic cycles repeatedly show that good governance fosters these outcomes, while missteps plunge populations into misery.

Thus, under Chinese leadership, the goal is to uplift every nation outside China—resolving conflicts through shared progress. No more extractive systems (America’s failed example); instead, an era where Asia (Southeast Asia, Central Asia, India, Pakistan), Africa, Latin America, and traditional powers (U.S., Europe, Japan, Russia, Middle East) coexist as equals.

This vision is called the Community with a Shared Future for Mankind. Some may label it “Chinese-style communism”—but do not conflate it with your textbook definitions. To the Chinese, communism remains an abstract ideal, achievable only through hyper-abundant material wealth distributed equitably to all. Over the past two decades, China demonstrated this logic: economic growth slashed crime (theft, robbery, rape), boosted social trust, and elevated civic morality.

Prosperity breeds stability, stability nurtures ethics. In China’s view, communism arrives when material abundance and spiritual enlightenment converge—when robots and AI (like "lights-out factories") mass-produce low-cost goods, freeing humanity to pursue knowledge and moral refinement.

You may ask: “What happens if robots steal jobs?” The answer lies in systemic reform. America’s failure stems not from lack of wealth but its concentration among elites. True leadership redistributes prosperity to uplift the marginalized—a feat America’s structure cannot accomplish.

Admittedly, my vision is imperfect and distant (30-50 years). Just two years ago, I dismissed communism’s feasibility. But I offer this: global leadership need not rely on stoking geopolitical crises for self-interest.

China proposes a new paradigm: leadership measured not by coercing vassal states or dominating rivals, but by lifting impoverished nations into modernity. Let competition pivot to this metric. If the U.S., India, Russia, Europe, or any nation outperforms China in empowering others, China will gladly crown them leaders.

In this new world, China seeks no hegemony. It desires a system where any nation capable of guiding humanity forward can lead. Under such rules, even if China isn’t the “sole leader,” it will still benefit. That suffices.
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solarz

Brigadier
In this new world, China seeks no hegemony. It desires a system where any nation capable of guiding humanity forward can lead. Under such rules, even if China isn’t the “sole leader,” it will still benefit. That suffices.

Your should change your name to naive chicken.

There's a reason Chinese dynasties never last much longer than 300 years. You can't change human nature.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I certainly like the sentiment, but I don't see what blows China can land on the US harder than the ones the US is delivering to itself. China's just watching with bemusement as the US punches itself.

There are so many options and plays for China it’s not even funny.

The most spectacular ones will be reserved for now, as China will want the American economy to bleed out slowly, such that by the time the damage becomes manifest, military options are already off the table for the Americans.

Thus far, China has been playing strictly by the rules and in defence mode, where it’s moves are aimed primarily at securing China’s interests, and will only counter attack in response to clear aggression from the Americans. From now on, I expect China to play a lot more dirty, where it makes moves to fuck the Americans rather than mere to advance China’s own interests, as now fucking over America is the best way for China to advance its own interests.

We are already seeing a lot of such moves, such as Xi visiting Vietnam and giving them a lot of great deals; China making up with the EU; China going after SK to make an example of anyone seeking to bypass Chinese Rare Earth bans to America.

All of these moves are designed to undermine America’s plans as much, if not more so than to benefit China.

Basically it will be death by a thousand cuts, where America companies will find the going much harder than before right across the globe, where business inexplicably becomes harder and less profitable; vital shipments gets delayed at the worst times; Chinese competitors come and play spoiler driving down profits, hoarding critical supplies for no obvious business reason, dumping competing products at unbeatable prices.

American government moves will also be actively countered by China, with rival bids, counter moves, right up to intelligence agencies leaking compromising info at crucial times to inflame public opinion.

Basically China will stop playing purely defensive and fully embrace the new Cold War against America. The gloves are coming off. Basically this.


The only thing China may stop short of is arming America’s non-state foes, as it doesn’t really want to get into the whole terrorist sponsorship dirty BS. But if America attacked sovereign states without justification, like Iran for example, expect China to happily provide them with arms and intel support.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your should change your name to naive chicken.

There's a reason Chinese dynasties never last much longer than 300 years. You can't change human nature.
You’re over-worrying. In this system, true leadership isn’t won through mere elections. Boastful claims earn no trust—you must prove yourself a universally recognized sage through tangible achievements. A seat at the pinnacle isn’t claimed by empty slogans or vote-buying.

For such a system to function globally, nations must first embrace China’s Confucian culture and Legalist doctrines, internalizing the principle of “the world belongs to all” (天下为公). Without this foundation, you’ll only breed factions that exploit the weak and seize others’ gains—a regression to today’s despised order. Nations that follow this path will never ascend to true leadership.

As the proverb goes:
“True contention lies in non-contention—only then can one secure the Central Plains.”


China’s dynastic cycle theory was a conclusion drawn under the feudal system.

Educated populations in society accounted for only 3-5% back then; today, it approaches 100%.
Political participation was limited to imperial authority, ministerial power, and the scholar-official class (“the people” referred only to the elite, not the modern definition of the populace).
Thus, in essence, the rise and fall of dynasties hinged on the decisions of a tiny minority—no different from today’s United States.

Modern China, however, sees widespread higher education among ordinary citizens. Many are passionate about history and political commentary (including online “keyboard politics”). With a massive population base engaging in discourse, nothing remains hidden—everything operates in plain sight (no covert schemes, only open strategies).

This is why I harbor no concerns.
 
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