Trade War with China

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AssassinsMace

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Here's the bottom line. US allies need to make money. The US pays to replace what they lose from China as a customer or no one is going to follow the US. If the US pays, it will go bankrupt just from how much it'll cost the US to keep everyone in line. Payment has mostly come in the form of trade and Trump is trying to make sure the imbalance is in the US's favor meaning less money allies are making from the US. And that's why allies are indifferent to US wishes.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Is this about the one about Huawei going to do 5G for Argentina and Russia? If no one has posted them in yet, I will.

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Didn't know Xinhua has a Spanish edition.

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SPECIAL: Telecom Argentina highlights Huawei as a strategic infrastructure and technology partner

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China's Huawei signs deal to develop 5G network in Russia
Huawei welcomes agreement in area ‘of strategic importance’ after meeting between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin

Nope. What I posted is China's own 5G buil up. China has been piloting with 5G for some time now and today formally launched or should we say began its 5G roll out.

China also said that it welcomes foreign firms to participate in its own 5G network build up.
 

styx

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Here's the bottom line. US allies need to make money. The US pays to replace what they lose from China as a customer or no one is going to follow the US. If the US pays, it will go bankrupt just from how much it'll cost the US to keep everyone in line. Payment has mostly come in the form of trade and Trump is trying to make sure the imbalance is in the US's favor meaning less money allies are making from the US. And that's why allies are indifferent to US wishes.


it's like a gravity trap china is growing in mass and has got a strategy for the next 20 years, usa is shrinking in relative mass and has not a strategy. Many european countries exports billions and billions in china some with also a trading surplus.
 

B.I.B.

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Here's the bottom line. US allies need to make money. The US pays to replace what they lose from China as a customer or no one is going to follow the US. If the US pays, it will go bankrupt just from how much it'll cost the US to keep everyone in line. Payment has mostly come in the form of trade and Trump is trying to make sure the imbalance is in the US's favor meaning less money allies are making from the US. And that's why allies are indifferent to US wishes.

If Trump is rakinging in the billions as claimed,then how come he has to ask Congress for money to build his wall?
 

CMP

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U.S.-China Trade War Portends Painful Times for U.S. Semiconductor Industry
By TEKLA S. PERRY
Posted 5 Jun 2019 | 18:06 GMT
Photograph of a chip that says "Made in China."
Photo: Shutterstock
“There is going to be a lot of pain for the semiconductor industry before it normalizes,” says Dan Hutcheson.

“It’s a mess, and it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better,” says David French.

“If we aren’t going to sell them chips, it is not going to take them long [to catch up to us]; it is going to hurt us,” says Mar Hershenson.

French, Hutcheson, and Hershenson, along with Ann Kim and Pete Rodriguez, were discussing the U.S.-China trade war that escalated last month when the United States placed communications behemoth Huawei on a trade blacklist. All five are semiconductor industry veterans and investors: French is currently chairman of Silicon Power Technology; Hutcheson is CEO of VLSI Research; Hershenson is managing partner of Pear Ventures, Kim is managing director of Silicon Valley Bank’s Frontier Technology Group, and Rodriguez is CEO of startup incubator Silicon Catalyst. The five took the stage at Silicon Catalyst’s second industry forum, held in Santa Clara, Calif., last week to discuss several aspects of the trade war:

Effects on China
IP theft
Immigration policy
A call for a national strategy
Missing investment dollars
Effects on China

Tight trade policies, these semiconductor industry veterans expect, will hurt the U.S. industry more than China. “The consumption of semiconductors in China is 40 to 50 percent” of the world supply, said French. “And that number is going to go up whether we sell to them or not.”

Can China’s tech industry really do just fine without U.S. chips? The panelists debated the question.

“I think China is going to struggle with memory,” Hutcheson said. “In memory, the costs are in the equipment and the efficiencies of running the fab; only 5 percent of the cost is labor. That is going to be difficult for them, to have to get materials and equipment from around world.”

French disagreed. “If we take a policy of not selling the best stuff to China,” he said, “if they are forced to use their own [technology], they will, even if it’s a little bit worse.”

“Maybe they can be competitive in China where they are protected,” Hutcheson countered, “but they won’t be able to sell outside China.”

That won’t matter, Kim indicated. “If you are the dominant player in China, you are already doing good.”

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On IP theft

But what about all that theft of intellectual property, Rodriguez asked the group. Shouldn’t China be punished?

“IP theft is a big emotional issue, and there is legitimacy to the issue,” French said. “But I don’t think China has cornered the market on IP theft. I don’t think they are the best at it or the most prolific.”

“If there were people from 19th century Britain,” he mused, “they would say the same thing about Americans.”

In any case, it’s a short-term problem. When China’s home-grown intellectual property “gets to a significant level—and it will—China will become more about the protection of IP than acquisition,” French said, reminding the audience that Japanese tech companies followed a similar path.

Hutcheson pointed further back in history. “Europeans today are competitive even though we stole all their tech in the 19th century,” he said. “We all love German cars, we buy European products.”

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On immigration policy

Restrictive immigration policies are also hurting the semiconductor industry, the panelists indicated, particularly in an era in which U.S. students are tending to ignore electrical engineering and other hardware-oriented fields in favor of computer science programs.

“The immigration problem is real,” said Hershenson. “When I did my graduate research, 70 percent of the students in my group were from Iran; for the last couple of years, Iranians can’t even come to the country.”

Hutcheson agreed: “That’s the American strength, bringing those people in. The diversity of our industry makes us strong, brings new ideas, [and] radical thinking.”

A member of the audience of about 150 asked for a show of hands from those attendees who weren’t born in the United States. The vast majority of people raised a hand.

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A call for a national strategy

So what should the United States do, besides back down on restrictions on trade with China and be more open to skilled immigrants?

“I believe we should have a national strategy on semiconductors,” said French. “And I believe we should invest as a country, through the government, in advanced technology for manufacturing semiconductors.”

“If we focus as a country on being number one in semiconductor manufacturing,” he continued, “we could do that for a small percentage of our military defense budget. I truly believe that we need to continue to be a leader in semiconductors if we want to be the leading economy in the world.”

Rodriguez pointed out that a set of government policy recommendations released in April by the Semiconductor Industry Association talked about 5G, AI, and quantum computing, but not about a national strategy to support semiconductor manufacturing. That, he indicated, was a significant oversight.

Some audience members countered that various arms of the U.S. government do invest in semiconductor companies, but others pointed out that these initiatives, for the most part, come out of defense-related entities. Said one, “That’s all well and good, but the defense department has a different economic model than commercial industry.”

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The missing investment dollars

Building semiconductor foundries is not cheap, several attendees pointed out. “Companies can’t do it because payback analysis fails,” French said. “And you can’t do it with venture capital.”

“Hardware companies have started avoiding using the word hardware. They are just saying it’s a form factor that collects data.”
—Ann Kim, Silicon Valley Bank
While the venture capital model doesn’t make sense for semiconductor foundries, Hershenson pointed out that a lot of semiconductor innovation on other fronts has been funded by startups and venture capital.

“But,” she said, “there’s been a drought of it in the last 15 years. It used to be, you went to any Sand Hill [venture] firm and they had someone who knew something about semiconductors; now, most megafirms don’t. So, how do we support innovation?”

“I can start a software company at Starbucks,” she said. “I can’t do a custom microprocessor without money.”

Maybe, the panelists suggested, the industry needs to do better at marketing itself, making itself as cool as it was back in the days of the space race. Just how to do that, however, is not clear—nor will it be easy.

There’s such a bias against hardware these days, Kim pointed out, that “hardware companies have started avoiding using the word hardware. They are just saying it’s a form factor that collects data.”

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About View From the Valley blog
IEEE Spectrum’s blog featuring the people, places, and passions of the world of technologists in Silicon Valley and its environs.
Tekla Perry, Editor
 

styx

Junior Member
Registered Member
it would be possible for huawey to forcibly update all existing huawei phones with the new hongmeng operating system and cancel millions of android licenses in a single push?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
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Building semiconductor foundries is not cheap, several attendees pointed out. “Companies can’t do it because payback analysis fails,” French said. “And you can’t do it with venture capital.”

“Hardware companies have started avoiding using the word hardware. They are just saying it’s a form factor that collects data.”

What I've been saying a couple of posts back on the Huawei thread.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
it would be possible for huawey to forcibly update all existing huawei phones with the new hongmeng operating system and cancel millions of android licenses in a single push?

That could make a lot of Huawei phone owners unhappy. Its better to keep them running the same Android OS. I know I won't be happy if an update would break my games and my apps. You can also get sued by these owners, since this is a breech of sales contract.

In my opinion, Huawei is likely running its skinned AOSP in the Chinese market just like the other Chinese smartphone manufacturers. Its better to sell a Googleless AOSP phone and leave hooks so that you can download and installed Google Play and other Google software separately. Amazon's Fire Tablets is running an AOSP and is Google-less.

It is very difficult to break a duopoly once that is established. See how Blackberry OS and Windows Phone died.

The name ARK OS, ARK sounds like Android Runtime for the AR. K I don't know what it stands for.
 
now I read
China Focus: China issues report on US gains from bilateral economic, trade cooperation
Xinhua| 2019-06-06 20:19:40
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China-U.S. trade has been mutually beneficial, and the United States has reaped substantial benefits from bilateral economic and trade cooperation, China's Ministry of Commerce said Thursday in a research report.

"China-U.S. economic and trade cooperation has reached unprecedented depth and breadth," said the report, noting that bilateral goods trade surged from 2.5 billion U.S. dollars in 1979 to 633.5 billion dollars last year.

Bilateral trade in services exceeded 125 billion dollars in 2018, and two-way direct investment totaled nearly 160 billion dollars in the past four decades.

OVERSTATED U.S. DEFICITS

China's surplus come mainly from labor-intensive products, and the country saw deficits for products including aircraft, integrated circuits, automobiles and agricultural products, as well as in service trade, showing both countries have capitalized on their respective industrial advantages, it added.

"Strict control of the United States over exports to China is one of the important reasons for the trade deficit," the report read, adding that U.S. export control measures involve around 3,100 items in 10 categories, including mostly high-tech products.

If the United States liberalizes its export barriers against China to the same level as France, the U.S. trade deficit with China would narrow by a third, the report cited the analysis by U.S. Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

According to the joint study of Chinese and U.S. commerce authorities, the U.S. goods trade deficit data has long been overestimated, with a 21-percent overstatement for 2015, the report said.

Calculated with this percentage, the U.S. side's goods trade deficit of 419.2 billion dollars last year was overstated by 88 billion dollars.

As nearly 53 percent of China's goods trade surplus from the United States came from processing trade, the actual U.S. deficit to China last year should be just 240.9 billion dollars, the report said.

To calculate trade deficit, trade in services should also be taken into account. Counting in cross-border service trade and service sales of affiliated institutions, overall U.S. trade deficit to China should be around 153.6 billion dollars, some 37 percent of U.S. figure for goods trade deficit to China, the report showed.

SUBSTANTIAL GAINS

Although China had a trade surplus, the bilateral trade benefits both sides, and the argument that the United States is being taken advantage of does not hold water, the report said.

China is one of the fastest growing markets for U.S. goods exports, with an average annual growth of 6.3 percent from 2009 to 2018, the report said, adding that the cumulative growth for the period was 73.2 percent, much higher than the average growth of 56.9 percent for other markets of the United States.

The significance of China to the U.S. economy is also reflected in job creation. According to a report released by the U.S.-China Business Council in May 2019, U.S. exports to China supported more than 1.1 million American jobs from 2009 to 2018.

Moreover, 54 percent of China's goods trade surplus from the United States was generated by foreign firms and 53 percent of the surplus came from processing trade. China only earned from limited processing charges while the United States accumulated huge benefits from designing, parts supply and marketing, the report said.

By trading with China, the United States imported a huge amount of high-quality products at low prices, and therefore managed to keep comparatively low inflation and reduce its production costs, the report said.

In the Chinese market, the sales revenue of U.S. firms exceeded 940 billion dollars in 2017.

Of the number, the export sales in goods and services by U.S. firms to China stood at 153.9 billion dollars and 87.1 billion dollars respectively in 2017. The remaining large portion of sales revenue of 700 billion dollars was generated by U.S. firms investing in China, noted the report.

As for the inflow of Chinese funds to the United States, the number amounted to 1.37 trillion dollars by the end of 2017.

At the end of 2017, the Chinese investment in the United States stood at 155.8 billion dollars. China's holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds amounted to 1.18 trillion dollars, according to the U.S. Treasury Department.

The aggregate investment earnings of U.S. financial institutions as strategic investors or investors of Chinese financial institutions were around 32.6 billion dollars, according to Chinese data.

"The immense achievements in China-U.S. economic and trade cooperation result from the two countries' efforts to comply with the trend of the times, actively engage in economic globalization, and strengthen cooperation for mutual benefits," the report said.

Bilateral economic and trade cooperation could not have achieved so much if it benefited only one side at the sacrifice of the other, the report noted.

"Both countries should dedicate themselves to advancing economic and trade cooperation at higher level and with better quality, so as to benefit the two peoples and contribute more to the growth and prosperity of world economy," the report said.
 
now I read
US may escalate trade war in six ways
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/6/5 20:23:40
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US may escalate trade war in six ways and the nation needs to be prepared

All parties suffer during the trade war, a game of "killing 1,000 enemies while losing 800 of our own."

Many institutions have forecast the impact of increased tariffs on China's economic growth to be around 1 percentage point. While there is no need to panic, we should also prepare for worst-case scenarios.

Everyone is concerned about how trade frictions will escalate. First will come escalated tariffs. In the early days of the trade war, American consumers shouldered much of the burden of tax increases. According to my estimates, the US may have suffered more at the beginning, but China's losses could be bigger later. But whatever happens, the US tariff increase has hurt American consumers and entrepreneurs. I believe there will be forces within the US to correct the wrongs of the Trump administration.

Second could be an investment war. As labor costs in China are rising, some foreign investors have already started to make adjustments. The trade war is speeding up the process - some foreign companies will pull out of China and Chinese companies may relocate overseas. However, in 2017, 3,500 foreign companies moved to South China's Guangdong Province, while only 2,200 withdrew. As long as the right policies are made, China can keep foreign investment and bring in more.

Third is the US is trying to strangle China's high-tech industry by cutting off the global value chain. This began with ZTE and now Huawei is targeted. China has three options. One is to be self-dependent by decoupling from the global value chain. Another is to embrace the global value chain. The last is for Chinese companies to have their own backups in case the US cuts supply.

The US is pushing China to the first option. Whether the second option will work for us, the ball is not in our court. But one positive factor is that China has already integrated with the global value chain. For the third option, some of China's high-tech firms can buy some time.

The fourth scenario is a currency war. It is difficult to imagine what excuses the US could find to fight a currency war with China, but this could happen if Trump insists. If we don't intervene in the yuan and let it devalue, will the US again claim China is a currency manipulator? I think it is possible.

One problem confronting us presently is a slowdown of China's economic growth. China should adopt a more expansionary fiscal policy, complemented by loose monetary policy. Lower interest rates will put the yuan under rising depreciation pressure. The central bank has recently succeeded in stabilizing the yuan through the issuance of central bank bills in the offshore market, but what if the depreciation pressure continues?

The fifth scenario is the imposition of financial sanctions - arguably a powerful shot. The US can take advantage of the so-called long-arm jurisdiction to do whatever it wants. Once a company makes the US Specially Designated Nationals list, it will be kicked out of the US settlement system, meaning it can't use the US dollar, or its dollar assets might be impounded.

In this worst-case scenario, no one, including Chinese domestic businesses, would dare do business with a company targeted by such sanctions. We have to consider countermeasures. The so-called "blocking statute" is being deployed in Europe to nullify financial sanctions by the US. It might not be very effective, but it puts the rules in place. China should step up legislative efforts to protect the interests of Chinese enterprises.

The sixth scenario could be freezing China's overseas assets. This would certainly smack of a war. I will say the US is unlikely to go that far. Some entrepreneurs have concerns over petroleum embargoes. I think the US government understands there should be limits on playing with fire.

China, for its part, is also in need of an overhaul. In the short-term, we have no choice but to strike back as the US launches a trade war against China. But that needs to be reason-based and somehow restrained. Our goal is not to spread the flames of war but to extinguish them.

My belief has always been that China needs to take an active role in negotiations, but can't accept ultimatums or sacrifice its sovereignty and dignity. Meanwhile, we have to implement an active fiscal policy and loose monetary policy to offset the adverse impact on China's economy.

Efforts are also required to press ahead with exchange rate reforms, improve management of cross-border capital flows, and improve the competitive environment for foreign investment. Instead of pushing foreign investment out of the country, we should try our best to retain it.

The country needs to revise its long-term strategy to focus more on the domestic market, as there is room to cut our dependence on overseas markets.

Additionally, China has to fine-tune its position on global supply chains. How should that be done? I reckon Huawei has already answered the question. The government needs to provide support to businesses and offer a cushion when suffering from its repositioning in global supply chains.

Last but not least, regardless of the Trump administration's provocations, China will surely adhere to reform and opening-up, its two-pronged unshakable faith.
 
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