This trade tariff thingy that Trump is considering on implementing proves that age is no barrier to stupidity
However folks I hang around with are of the opinion that Trumps main goal is to rein in IP theft.
Trade War with China
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However folks I hang around with are of the opinion that Trumps main goal is to rein in IP theft.
solarz
Brigadier
Probably because they're convinced that the only way China could progress was through IP theft.
icbeodragon
Junior Member
Huh? that article clearly debunks the idea, so what are you being angry about? That the US has a varied and free press? Its not unheard of for publications (such as urban magazine, the originator) to get tricked by onion like satirical sources.
Maybe its because you're a foreigner? But its clear as day to me why the New York Times agrees with Trump on the dire state of US-China trade, despite their otherwise antithetical stances on almost everything else. The US view on the current status of US-China trade is no lie to its people.
There is general agreement among both parties that something must be done about the many issues that come with US-China trade. This includes IP theft, the deficit, unequal tariffs, and certain policies like forcing a company to partner with a domestic company for market access. Perhaps the solution is to cut off all trade, perhaps its to cut off some trade, perhaps its a multilateral agreement with other parties, or perhaps it is some negotiated bilateral agreement with China, but the status quo can no longer hold for the US.
You can can scream that its lies until you're red in the face, but its very real to Americans, and has been for almost 2 decades, with increasingly clarity. Something will be done. Neither party can afford to ignore the issue.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I guess you don't understand that Dr. Drew was perpetuating a lie to support tariffs. Isn't the truth enough to support one's arguments? One has to lie because the truth doesn't support one's arguments. Yes people who don't conform to your views aren't American. It's called free speech. Look it up.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Well I bet that after Trump tries to change the status quo by global tantrum and feels the suffering in its economy inflicted by both self-harm and Chinese retaliation, Americans will decide it's better to go back to the status quo. Maybe Trump will even ask Xi for a way out, like he asked Nieto by phone to hold back on a straight out refusal from Mexico to pay for his wall so Trump could save face with the people. Perhaps Xi will offer him a way to crawl out, some non-binding "concessions," empty gestures from China or maybe something out of the Korean playbook. (SK allowed Trump to double US car import quotas despite the fact that actual US car sales have never even reached 40% of the original quota in any year.) Maybe China can allow US to sell more of something while instructing the big corporate users to snub it. Lots of things you can do when you have control over your economy and aren't worried about pig/soy farmers voting you out of office for messing up their businesses.
One thing's for sure: when you're as delusional as Trump and his 2 economic advisers (Navarro and Lightizer), nothing is going to go according to plan, especially when dealing with a country as tactful as China. This is how funny Trump is, in response to China's $50 billion retaliation:
"Rather than remedy its misconduct, China has chosen to harm our farmers and manufacturers." -Trump
When you're this good at making deals, it's no wonder you go bankrupt 6 times.
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icbeodragon
Junior Member
So what? He's some random radio host, he doesn't represent the US government's views. If he's trying to create a narrative for a real issue its on him. It doesn't change that its a real issue though.
Maybe you should take your own advice when trying to extrapolate a random radio host to the government.
and as for nationality I guess I assumed given the way you speak. It felt like you identified not as American but a different nationality, or perhaps less as American than a foreign nationality. Its not unheard of.
So are you American? Not that it really matters on a forum, so if you'd rather not answer feel free, its beside the point really that the status quo cannot hold.
Your view is not out of the normal on this thread, but again you aren't realizing that this is bigger than Trump. He's just the one who, in his usual crass fashion, baldly stated the problem in a straightforward fashion and is looking to solve the problem in a straight forward (and perhaps suboptimal) fashion.
The tact may change depending on administration, but the goal will be the same of balancing US China trade in numerous aspects, even if that balance has to, in the end, become even at 0.
For my part, I sincerely doubt that the US will go back to the situation it has been in, and I wouldn't expect for the political environment to allow for it anyways.
Fantasies of US weakness are quite popular both domestically and abroad, have been for centuries in various forms.
It definitely sells papers and gets clicks.
I think the US will survive and prosper, as it has before through adversity, despite the naysayers who doubt. It is their right to doubt publicly and loudly, but the US fundamentals are strong, the US is fully self sufficient for the necessities of life. Anything less crucial might take time, but time is available and the know how is there.
It may take some years to rebuild lost industrial capacity from shutting down trade (if necessary) But if as has been alluded to on here, China moves to punish US companies in China in a proactive fashion then I'd expect that return to be accelerated, and always gotta start somewhere. Some businesses might not survive, but others will rise to take their place if demand exists.
Trump certainly has his flaws, but if there's one thing the Chinese members on here should know, its to not believe that he won't do what might need to be done. He is very capable of doing so, and if the choice is stark, I think the electorate will follow him again.
Everything you've said is even more true for China. More self sufficient, more united, better led, more resilient considering famine occurred within living memory. If one country is well-equipped to deal with a trade war, it's China. The only country that can weather a trade war better is North Korea.
No one's saying the US will be annihilated by the impending trade war, they'll just accelerate their relative decline to rising Asian countries.
The electorate will only support him and the republicans through midterm and 2020 as long as economic pains from the trade war are not being felt acutely by the electorates. It's too early and a bit premature to pontificate about trump's support since the trade war is just starting. The impact of US-China trade war hasn't even reached the middle and lower class yet.
Only when voters' personal finance, jobs, pensions are being materially affected, we then can make a meaningful assessment of trump's support in continuing the trade war.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
I agree with that.
If they were willing to make that number 0, anyone could have done it. It is because they want to balance it but cannot have it become 0; that is why so many administrations cannot solve the "issue."
Well, it is very easy to disguise that for the people. Trump couldn't go on stage and say, "Well, we bluffed and we lost. So we'll go back to the way it was before with them robbing us blind." But he can say, "Fellow Americans, we have come to a compromise with the Chinese under tense negotiation under my leadership. We have reached several major milestones across the board including MOUs, agreements moving forward, hundreds of billions of dollars in (prospective) investments in the United States, and personal promises of market reform from my dear friend, Xi." Aaaannd all of them will amount to nothing as the fire dies down. He could be well into the final stretch of the second term before people look back and complain that nothing has changed.
Centuries? The US has been a superpower for 70+ years. And it's not its weakness that will drive it to cave; it is the greed of capitalism.
Of course it will; I don't think anyone here is saying that the US literally won't survive or be "fine" in the long term. Going into a trade war as the largest economy and emerging as the second largest is still surviving and prosperous enough, and so is becoming an old protectionist economy that makes everything itself with people living frugally to make ends meet. Just take a look at European economies that show nearly flat growth: good enough to be called prosperous by Western standards.
That... might happen... Or... That manufacturing will be sent elsewhere with higher costs than China but lower than the US because Americans are not ready to work hard for little pay or pay much more for the things they want.
That's assuming that he actually knows what needs to be done. I believe he's a doer, but so is the kid who sets the house on fire because his parents were complaining it's cold at night. Most of the complaints pointed at Trump aren't that he doesn't do things; they're of his incompetence and ignorance. I, for one, hope very much that the electorate follows him again in 2020.
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
you are missing the wood for the trees just focusing on this one pundit. He is just an example of a far deeper and endemic problem with American China reporting, in that blatant lies and falsehoods are not only tolerated, but often welcomed and encouraged so long as it fits with the overriding narrative of painting China in a bad light.
And this isn’t just about ‘private’ media offer their own take. If you compare the China reporting from different news outlets like Fox and CNN and contrast that to domestic reporting, it’s almost impossible not to see something seriously fishy going on when the same two can have such diametrically opposes news on domestic matters, yet have their China reporting so in step you have to check the names to see who’s news piece you are reading.
And with how often American officials (and not just under trump) cites news reports to criticise China, it’s a very valid point to be making that irresponsible reporting is one of the main sources of the tensions that has contributed to this trade dispute.
No matter how bad the trade war gets, even if all trade is reduced to zero between China and the US as you hyperbolically suggested, it won’t be a matter of national survival or either the US or China. Both are too powerful and diversified for that to be on the cards.
What a trade war will do, is cause significant economic pain and hardship on a lot of people in both China and the US, and wider afield also.
The difference is that everyone, including most Americans, sees this as something Trump and America has started. And being his unusual crass and unreasonable self about it, Trump is giving off his usual bully boy signature.
That means when the pain hits, everyone is going to blame him and his administration, and also see as removing him from power as the quickest and easiest way to end the pain.
Unless he does full dictator, that means he will be out of power come the next election, with someone promising to end the economic hardship as almost certain to be the winner.
If America was a viable alternative, why do you think companies keep leaving? Look up on the fate of the first wave of re-shoring companies. Modern manufacturing is all about supply lines.
You will need significant and sustained government intervention to build up the necessary critical mass of manufacturing ecosystem to make America a viable choice as a manufacturing base. somewhat ironic.
But far more likely would be that companies will move manufacturing elsewhere in Asia if there is a trade war long before considering moving back to America.
Without even more extreme government intervention than what China has been doing, American manufacturing revival is just a pipe dream, unless the economic hardship from this trade war hits America hard enough to destroy the value of the dollar and make American labour prices competitive against the likes of Vietnam and Mexico. But that’s a Pyrrhic victory if there ever is one perfect example.
The point is that the this is very much a war of choice, that could be ended pretty much as soon as America stops acting unilaterally and start playing by the ‘rules based system’ again.
So given the choice of doing that or face continues economic hardship, it’s hard to see the American electorate choosing more of Trump’s folly.
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