Trade War with China

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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
China tech development policy is full of frauds!!
They kept talking about
"弯路超车" . That essentially is taking short cut.
AI chip development is a prime example, it's not a fundamental tech, its a futuristic tech and more like icing in the cakes and every companies are jumping into like Alibaba. Huawei, Cambricon. Horizontal robotic. Why so heated ? Because it's doable for them. They don't have to understand process tech, don't have to understand silicon, gallium nitride , asenide, indium phosphate, all those fundamental science technology.
They design their chip using logic and hand out TSMC to manufacture for them.
They earn brownie points by showing China audiences and government they are do tech development. BS!

China government got fooled and even Xi told everyone AI is the future. They even Incorporated AI course as mandatory in public school curriculum. Again, AI is the icing on the cake, not fundamental science.

This is equivalent for China skipping development of Liaoning, shandong carrier and jump straight into nuke powered one. Are they going to succeed. Hell no.

Current China tech policy of frauds,ain't going to work. They need to revamp their policy. No individual can change that but fundamental change in their policy and approach.


Intel, Samsung are true tech companies, they control their process tech and develope their products. Huawei is not.
Alibaba is a joke.

There you have it, lil wisdom man...
 
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T

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
As long as China kept talking AI, 5G all those higher up application tech and neglecting fundamental science that dealing with control of light, electrons, atoms manipulation and molecules (Semiconductor equipment, product process tech development) China will be forever handicapped and hopeless.
I seeing current Chinese government extreme level of promotion of AI as evidences of their advisors being clueless, taking short cut..

Yeah, lil wisdom man said they got so many smart advisors.. Yeah right, Smart my where the sun doesn't shine..
 
B

B.I.B.

Captain
tidalwave said:
As long as China kept talking AI, 5G all those higher up application tech and neglecting fundamental science that dealing with control of light, electrons, atoms manipulation and molecules (Semiconductor equipment, product process tech development) China will be forever handicapped and hopeless.
I seeing current Chinese government extreme level of promotion of AI as evidences of their advisors being clueless, taking short cut..

Yeah, lil wisdom man said they got so many smart advisors.. Yeah right, Smart my where the sun doesn't shine..
Click to expand...

Are you ethnic Chinese?
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
tidalwave said:
China tech development policy is full of frauds!!
They kept talking about
"弯路超车" . That essentially is taking short cut.
AI chip development is a prime example, it's not a fundamental tech, its a futuristic tech and more like icing in the cakes and every companies are jumping into like Alibaba. Huawei, Cambricon. Horizontal robotic. Why so heated ? Because it's doable for them. They don't have to understand process tech, don't have to understand silicon, gallium nitride , asenide, indium phosphate, all those fundamental science technology.
They design their chip using logic and hand out TSMC to manufacture for them.
They earn brownie points by showing China audiences and government they are do tech development. BS!

China government got fooled and even Xi told everyone AI is the future. They even Incorporated AI course as mandatory in public school curriculum. Again, AI is the icing on the cake, not fundamental science.

This is equivalent for China skipping development of Liaoning, shandong carrier and jump straight into nuke powered one. Are they going to succeed. Hell no.

Current China tech policy of frauds,ain't going to work. They need to revamp their policy. No individual can change that but fundamental change in their policy and approach.


Intel, Samsung are true tech companies, they control their process tech and develope their products. Huawei is not.
Alibaba is a joke.

There you have it, lil wisdom man...
Click to expand...
There who has what? Your misguided angry rant? LOL Nobody wants that... You know how I know you're wrong? Cus you're stupid. You know how I know you're stupid? Because you claim to work in tech but don't even understand the logic behind burden of evidence.

Fundamental sciences and advanced sciences need to be developed concurrently for China. If they DROP the focus on advanced applications and focus on only catching up in fundamentals, they will fall behind very quickly. Of course, if they do the opposite, then they are at the mercy of those who control the fundamental sciences. So in order to avoid both, both areas need to be developed concurrently. Literally everyone knows that except you, and you say you work in tech? You must be joking. Maybe you're the janitor there... or the janitor's assistant LOL
tidalwave said:
As long as China kept talking AI, 5G all those higher up application tech and neglecting fundamental science that dealing with control of light, electrons, atoms manipulation and molecules (Semiconductor equipment, product process tech development) China will be forever handicapped and hopeless.
I seeing current Chinese government extreme level of promotion of AI as evidences of their advisors being clueless, taking short cut..

Yeah, lil wisdom man said they got so many smart advisors.. Yeah right, Smart my where the sun doesn't shine..
Click to expand...
Way smarter than you, that's for sure. Where the sun don't shine? Well... the darkest part of you is the empty space in your head... so... there? I think we all know nothing goes there for you.
B.I.B. said:
Are you ethnic Chinese?
Click to expand...
He doesn't know. He doesn't know what is stance or argument is either and says it's not important to have a point when coming into a discussion LOL He just knows his life sucks so he should complain loudly and blame others until it gets better :D
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
tidalwave said:
As long as China kept talking AI, 5G all those higher up application tech and neglecting fundamental science that dealing with control of light, electrons, atoms manipulation and molecules (Semiconductor equipment, product process tech development) China will be forever handicapped and hopeless.
I seeing current Chinese government extreme level of promotion of AI as evidences of their advisors being clueless, taking short cut..

Yeah, lil wisdom man said they got so many smart advisors.. Yeah right, Smart my where the sun doesn't shine..
Click to expand...

China is decades behind when it come to semiconductor. Don't forget that University was closed for 3 decades and didn't reopen until 1980's She spend 3 decades just catching up on science and technological base
so China completely missed the semiconductor revolution completely. Yes it is their own making and China still pay dearly for the mistakes
Comparing to Korea, Japan, and US is unfair because China does not have high tech industry until the last 10 years So the demand is not there for semiconductor .Plus it takes enormous amount of money to built FAB
They do have semiconductor equipment but still at infancy. Now they do have basic research in semiconductor
Rome is not built in a day

Look what happened in aerospace and defense industry China was so behind 10 years ago but now she is more or less catch up with the best
As I said this trade war is clarion call for China to double the effort in semiconductor self sufficiency
With determination and money, hard work she will get there just like any other industry that she was behind
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
...
Xi has proposed two major initiatives to boost local semiconductor production: offering income tax breaks for up to five years for companies that meet or exceed a certain chip production target, and setting up three state-led memory companies.

However, China has not built up manufacturers of chipmaking equipment to supply the trio, so it imports equipment heavily from the West -- a method that faces uncertainty as wary eyes are cast on Chinese high-tech industries from Washington and elsewhere.

The U.S. Department of Justice announced Thursday that a federal grand jury had indicted JHICC on charges of economic espionage for stealing manufacturing secrets from Micron. Before that, Washington had already slapped the company with an export ban preventing it from obtaining U.S.-made equipment, a move seen as severely impeding its efforts to enter mass production.
...
Click to expand...

I told you guys. Chip manufacturing equipment is heavily scrutinized with heavy export controls. SMIC is like the leading Chinese foundry at this time and they still use 28nm processes because they do not have access to better tools. Contrary to Japan, China has lagged with its machine tools market, across most sectors, and focused on expansion at the manufacturing side of things. This leaves them exposed to tactics like this. In several markets, like smartphone processors, being on the leading edge of processes is important and can cost you market share. It is the difference between competing in the $125 vs the $600 USD smartphone market.

On other consumer electronics this is less important and you can use someone like SMIC as a foundry. However even SMIC has been sued on several occasions by companies like TSMC. SMIC could get sanctioned and embargoed just as well. The only way to be safe from this is to have your own tools industry.

Still, because the ground work was not done, to meet current Chinese government timetable objectives they will simply have to bend down to pressure and litigate this. Preferably with their own IP. They could just buy or license the Infineon/Qimonda IP portfolio for example. This would enable them to manufacture DRAM with technology different from any of the other current major players with lower resolution tools. Or they could buy up IP on a leading edge memory type which uses less advanced manufacturing processes but is still useful for consumer electronics, automotive, and military applications like MRAM.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
gelgoog said:
I told you guys. Chip manufacturing equipment is heavily scrutinized with heavy export controls. SMIC is like the leading Chinese foundry at this time and they still use 28nm processes because they do not have access to better tools. Contrary to Japan, China has lagged with its machine tools market, across most sectors, and focused on expansion at the manufacturing side of things. This leaves them exposed to tactics like this. In several markets, like smartphone processors, being on the leading edge of processes is important and can cost you market share. It is the difference between competing in the $125 vs the $600 USD smartphone market.

On other consumer electronics this is less important and you can use someone like SMIC as a foundry. However even SMIC has been sued on several occasions by companies like TSMC. SMIC could get sanctioned and embargoed just as well. The only way to be safe from this is to have your own tools industry.

Still, because the ground work was not done, to meet current Chinese government timetable objectives they will simply have to bend down to pressure and litigate this. Preferably with their own IP. They could just buy or license the Infineon/Qimonda IP portfolio for example. This would enable them to manufacture DRAM with technology different from any of the other current major players with lower resolution tools. Or they could buy up IP on a leading edge memory type which uses less advanced manufacturing processes but is still useful for consumer electronics, automotive, and military applications like MRAM.
Click to expand...

Wrong both SMIC and Fujian semi has access to 14 nm China is one generation behind from the latest semiconductor but not far. Most of those FAB is close to completion they should be able to ship the chip this year
As to effort to stifle China progress in semiconductor It is futile exercise The horse has left the barn long ago The end result will see the end of domination of the like of Applied Material , Lam research etch Just like CNC machine at one time dominated by US industry now where are they now ? left to the dust bin of history!
This reporter is wrong China can supplied semiconductor tool but not the latest model This reporter is ignorance full of hubris

The first of those companies, Yangtze Memory Technologies -- also known as Yangtze River Storage Technology or Changjiang Storage -- focuses on cutting-edge, three-dimensional NAND flash memory. Innotron Memory, meanwhile, targets DRAM for mobile devices, while Fujian Jinhua Integrated Circuit Co., or JHICC, focuses on DRAM for home electronics. The companies have invested the equivalent of billions of dollars in their efforts. Once production gets under way in earnest, their presence will put heavy downward pressure on the market.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Just to refresh your memory
Shanghai's Biggest Chip Project Starts Production
TANG SHIHUA
DATE: FRI, 10/19/2018 - 13:59 / SOURCE:YICAI

2.1%E5%8D%8E%E5%8A%9B%E4%BA%8C%E6%9C%9F12%E8%8B%B1%E5%AF%B8%E5%85%88%E8%BF%9B%E7%94%9F%E4%BA%A7%E7%BA%BF%E5%91%A8%E5%9B%9B%E6%AD%A3%E5%BC%8F%E5%BB%BA%E6%88%90%E6%8A%95%E4%BA%A7.jpg

Shanghai's Biggest Chip Project Starts Production

(Yicai Global）Oct. 19 -- Huali Microelectronics, Shanghai's largest investment project for making integrated circuits, has finished its almost two-year construction period and started operations yesterday.

Total investment of the project which focuses on the production of logical nodes has reached CNY38.7 billion (USD5.5 billion), state-backed Shanghai Observer reported. The construction of the 12-inch advanced wafer silicon assembly line started in December 2016.

The value of integrated circuit industry will top CNY200 billion by 2020, according to Shanghai's municipal plan. The sector was valued at CNY120 billion last year, making up about 20 percent of the country's total.

Huali's assembly line covers nodes in a scale from 28 to 14 nanometers with a monthly capacity of 40,000 wafers. The parent's manufacturing capability will cover these central chip process technologies ranging from 14 nm to 0.5 nm.

The levels of production and engineering will be among the world's top five, the report added.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
They are now going gangbuster building semi FAB look at the project that broke the ground
digitimes.com
Tsinghua Unigroup new fab construction kicks off
Shinee Wu, Taipei; Jessie Shen, DIGITIMES
2-3 minutes

Tsinghua Unigroup new fab construction kicks off

Thursday 18 October 2018

China's state-owned Tsinghua Unigroup has already begun to implement its new fab projects in Nanjing and Chengdu as part of its memory business expansion. The new manufacturing sites are designed for monthly output of 300,000 12-inch wafers each, according to sources familiar with the matter.

Tsinghua Unigroup already has an existing manufacturing site in Wuhan, currently operated by subsidiary Yangtze Memory Technologies (YMTC). Tsinghua Unigroup in 2017 disclosed plans to establish IC manufacturing sites in Wuhan, Chengdu and Nanjing, with total investment reaching US$70 billion.

Tsinghua Unigroup broke ground for its US$30 billion plant in Nanjing on September 30, the sources said. The plant will be engaged mainly in the manufacture of 3D NAND flash and DRAM chips, and will be built in two phases.

The first phase of the Nanjing plant will bring in monthly production capacity of 100,000 wafers, with about US$10.5 billion set to be invested in the facility construction, the sources noted.

On October 12, Tsinghua Unigroup broke ground for another new memory plant, the sources indicated. Located in Chengdu, the plant will be built with US$24 billion in total investment and will have 12-inch 3D NAND flash production lines installed.

In addition, Unigroup Guoxin Microelectronics under Tsinghua Unigroup plans to transfer its entire 100% stake in Xian UniIC Semiconductors, which specializes in the design and development of DRAM chips, to UNIC Memory Technology under Tsinghua Unigroup. It marks Tsinghua Unigroup's move to integrate resources to enhance its memory business competitiveness, according to market observers.

Founded in August 2017, UNIC Memory Technology will be able to enhance its DRAM offering after merging with UniIC Semiconductors, the observers indicated. Meanwhile, Guoxin Microelectronics will be allowed to stay focused on its security chip business, the observers said.


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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes it was bound to happen. The pride police has come out because there's pride going on with Chinese.

Anyone watch Trump's press conference this morning? Trump has declared victory over and has stopped cold China's Made in China 2025 plan. He said China planned to dominate the world in 2025 and he stopped it.
 
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