Trade War with China

Deleted member 13312 · Oct 7, 2018

tidalwave said:
How does it go about attach itself to the motherboard?

How the spy chip knows about each wire or signal trace of motherboard is for?

Now you are just attempting to move to goalposts of this argument, by adding more and more points to the original argument until it is derail.
After pointing out this obvious attempt at a fallacy of yours there is 2 possible explanation to what you raise, even though they are clearly out context.

1) In a HYPOTHETICAL (note that I am quoting it in capital letters to make it clear to you that I am not asuating what bloomberg says to be true). The chip could be inserted into the motherboard by a subcontractor in the system. In many cases as a cost saving measure, governments often sublease projects to civilian contractors who in turn not always prescribe to the exacting levels of scrutiny or security.
2) In the modern area, programming software are often similar if not downright copied from one hardware to another. In this instance, a chip dealing in terms of software programs and not wires and signal traces as you claimed can identify software that are used to control communications and in turn utilize them. Heck we got civilian hacking software capable of remotely accessing a computer drive to download it's data. And that is without a chip, just a malicious software.

But while hardware hack is a very advantageous tactic for China to employ seeing as it is the foremost assembler of electronics. It has one major Achilles heel, it leaves a trace. So the agency behind this supposed hack must be either very confident or very naive.
A safer way would be to intercept the package during transit to implant the malware to ensure plausible denial, but that can be done by any third party with the right resources.

siegecrossbow · Oct 7, 2018

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Homeland Security has said it has “no reason to doubt” statements by Apple, Amazon and Supermicro denying allegations made in a Bloomberg report published earlier this week.

It’s
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so far from the U.S. government on the report, casting doubt on the findings. Homeland Security’s statement
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from the U.K.’s National Cyber Security Center.

Bloomberg said, citing more than a dozen sources, that China
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on motherboards built by Supermicro, which companies across the U.S. tech industry — including Amazon and Apple — have used to power servers in their datacenters. The chip can reportedly compromise data on the server, allowing China to spy on some of the world’s most wealthy and powerful companies.

Apple, Amazon and Supermicro later published statements on their websites. Bloomberg said it’s sticking by its story. And yet, this latest twist isn’t likely to leave anyone less confused, days after the story was first published.

Homeland Security protects the nation’s cyber defenses from both domestic and foreign threats. It’s rare for the government to issue a statement on an apparent threat which, according to Bloomberg, is a classified matter that’s been under federal investigation for three years.

The reality is that days after this story broke, it seems many of the smartest, technically minded, rational cybersecurity experts still don’t know who to believe — Bloomberg, or everyone else.

And until someone gets their hands on these apparent chips, don’t expect that to change any time soon.

U.S. government seems to confirm this as fake news.

Anlsvrthng · Oct 7, 2018

It h

siegecrossbow said:
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U.S. government seems to confirm this as fake news.

They said that it doesn't affect "Apple, Amazon and Supermicro".
Presumably they have close/complete control above the full supply chain, and they use only ICs sourced from they own , fully controlled supplier, or the final test happens under the supervision of they own workers.

There was an occasion when Chinese hackers installed hacking devices into POS terminals, and stole lot of credit card data, including PINs.
They found the hacked units by scaling them.
I think this is the reason why they highlighted the small nature of IC, means by it is not possible to found the hacked units by weight.

Viktor Jav said:
2) In the modern area, programming software are often similar if not downright copied from one hardware to another. In this instance, a chip dealing in terms of software programs and not wires and signal traces as you claimed can identify software that are used to control communications and in turn utilize them. Heck we got civilian hacking software capable of remotely accessing a computer drive to download it's data. And that is without a chip, just a malicious software.

In the age of closed hardware structures it is not possible. You can do it with a stock PC, owned by say me.
It is possible to found these kind of stuff by using hypervisor - installing the stock image onto a hypervisor , and scan the content with it, or by simply doing hard reset, and dump the ram of the machine to see if there is any unusual software there.

I presume all high security organisation doing periodic "high paranoia" scan all equipment periodically

Additional, the US government has absolute and complete control above all Intel /AMD CPUs, means the CIA can easily get rid of all infection by stopping the PC between two command, and siphon out the full memory/ cache/registry set for full scan, catching any military/government grade trojan / virus.

AssassinsMace · Oct 7, 2018

B.I.B. said:
Now that Trump and Co intentions to hollow out China's industry have been made abundantly clear. How successful do folks think he willl be?

No matter what... US prices goes up and margins will be smaller. Trump wants to x-out China in US supply chains... No matter what... prices go up. He thinks it can be done overnight. It can't. Trump thinks everything can be made in the US. Yeah it will cost US corporations the most. Ironic how Trump complains about Made in China 2025 which is his goal for the US. Choose another low wage country and they'll expect the US to pay for roads and infrastructure and not to mention getting the raw materials. Does Vietnam have massive shipping fleets scouring the world for raw materials? No. Again they want the US to do that for them and prices still go up. Most of the rare earths needed to make hi-tech electronics come from China. No matter what alternative they find, prices will go up. Total containment of China is impossible without a world of hurt coming right back at them. Move manufacturing to Southeast Asia? China can not sell them the raw materials to make things for foreigners. China can turn off the water to Southeast Asia. If the US can get them to help contain China, what makes China not do those things? The US already used up all it's leverage from the start.

Trump thinks there are no alternatives to the US so people will pay those high prices hence he doesn't think higher costs will do anything. Another mistake is thinking if the US slaps tariffs means the whole world does the same. US allies won't stop outsourcing. iPhone too expensive? They'll instead be buying Samsung. Is Trump going to force the world to reduce their profits to follow US policy. Or maybe he'll start putting restrictions on their products to the US to level the playing field. Trade war with the US's closest allies starts. Most of the US's allies in Asia have China as their number one customer over the US. Are they going to give that up just for the same market share in the US as usual? Trump will have to give them more market share to make up for the loss of China totally going against his promise to the people who voted for him. Is Trump going to bail out foreign corporations like soybean farmers to keep those countries loyal?

If Trump had his way that Americans only buy American, all that means is corporations will have two manufacturing bases. One in China that sells to the rest of world and one in the US where Americans will be paying the most for everything. Do you think the rest of the world will be paying for US products all made in the US with the most expensive labor in the world? No, only Americans will be. That's never going to get that far because it will destroy the US. If Trump forces US corporations to make all products for foreign and domestic, the US's destruction will be faster.

The only way the US can stop China is to get the world to go along and embargo and stop selling to China. The US already expects everyone else to carry out US foreign policy which includes military. What foreign policy experts complained about Obama was he gave great speeches to allies but then expected allies to do all the work. The Pivot to Asia was a great example of how that failed. His plan but he expected the US's Asians allies to carry it out. Asian allies expect the US to do all the dirty work. It's failure showed how reluctant the US and it's allies are to take on China. Now you have Trump. He wanted to take on North Korea and no US ally stepped up where he was relegated to expecting China, the enemy, to carry out US foreign policy. The way Trump is going at it, his ultimate end would be to turn China into another North Korea, the poorest and most isolated country and the worst nightmare to US foreign policy experts... The mightiest military alliance in the history of the world and they were too chicken to take on North Korea with a few nukes. Do you think the US's Asian allies want a country next door that can do a million times worse to them than North Korea can muster. Maybe their counting on the Chinese to revolt because they lost the love from Americans. Trump's foreign policy increases the likelihood of war. How many allies are going to sacrifice their people for the US when all they get is losing the China market to sell to because that's what Trump wants? The only thing Trump can offer is more US market share to make up for their losses but then that goes against everything his trade war promised to American voters.

China has an underground economy. That's why Chinese can afford to buy cars that US experts following their statistics say Chinese cannot afford. An underground economy says Chinese people have initiative to get what they want without the government. Americans live under a nanny state where they expect the government to solve all their problems. If their kids get bad grades or their schools underperform, they think the government throwing money at it will solve the problem when it's just you and your kid don't value learning. Americans think if US outsourced jobs are denied from China, it stops China cold because that's what would happen if they were in that situation.

The Chinese will adjust and it's for the better for the world. Everything the US does to stop it are all acts of war. Trump is not working to isolate China. He's working to have control over China like how all of the US allies are under the US's control hence why they folded or will fold so easily to Trump. China is not them. That's why China has a Silicon Valley and they don't. That's why China is the 2nd most powerful country and they're not. And China is threatening the number one spot while they never will. They tried to stop China with technology embargos and all it did was make China do it themselves. They can follow their stereotypes so they have nothing to worry about... but they are all about worry for a future not under their control.

AssassinsMace · Oct 7, 2018

I just saw a reply to a comment I made in an article about how Trump claims the price of soybeans have gone up contrary to reality. The Trumpsters are claiming it's fake news by the liberal fake media. I commented that they could actually check out the markets to see how much US soybeans are going for. One person replies how does going to the supermarket and checking out how much soybeans are going for tells me if it's fake news or not?

Anlsvrthng · Oct 7, 2018

The future of China is depending on China , as the future of USA is depending on the USA.

That is all.

The USA can live on its own, at the end of the day China wants to live on the same level like the USA, without having an outsourcing destination.

Higher prices change the structure of economy and consumption patter , start to give an advantage for companies using more efficiently the human capital.

Long term this is the core of the prosperity of every country.

B.I.B. · Oct 7, 2018

AssassinsMace said:
No matter what... US prices goes up and margins will be smaller. Trump wants to x-out China in US supply chains... No matter what... prices go up. He thinks it can be done overnight. It can't. Trump thinks everything can be made in the US. Yeah it will cost US corporations the most. Ironic how Trump complains about Made in China 2025 which is his goal for the US. Choose another low wage country and they'll expect the US to pay for roads and infrastructure and not to mention getting the raw materials. Does Vietnam have massive shipping fleets scouring the world for raw materials? No. Again they want the US to do that for them and prices still go up. Most of the rare earths needed to make hi-tech electronics come from China. No matter what alternative they find, prices will go up. Total containment of China is impossible without a world of hurt coming right back at them. Move manufacturing to Southeast Asia? China can not sell them the raw materials to make things for foreigners. China can turn off the water to Southeast Asia. If the US can get them to help contain China, what makes China not do those things? The US already used up all it's leverage from the start.

Trump thinks there are no alternatives to the US so people will pay those high prices hence he doesn't think higher costs will do anything. Another mistake is thinking if the US slaps tariffs means the whole world does the same. US allies won't stop outsourcing. iPhone too expensive? They'll instead be buying Samsung. Is Trump going to force the world to reduce their profits to follow US policy. Or maybe he'll start putting restrictions on their products to the US to level the playing field. Trade war with the US's closest allies starts. Most of the US's allies in Asia have China as their number one customer over the US. Are they going to give that up just for the same market share in the US as usual? Trump will have to give them more market share to make up for the loss of China totally going against his promise to the people who voted for him. Is Trump going to bail out foreign corporations like soybean farmers to keep those countries loyal?

If Trump had his way that Americans only buy American, all that means is corporations will have two manufacturing bases. One in China that sells to the rest of world and one in the US where Americans will be paying the most for everything. Do you think the rest of the world will be paying for US products all made in the US with the most expensive labor in the world? No, only Americans will be. That's never going to get that far because it will destroy the US. If Trump forces US corporations to make all products for foreign and domestic, the US's destruction will be faster.

The only way the US can stop China is to get the world to go along and embargo and stop selling to China. The US already expects everyone else to carry out US foreign policy which includes military. What foreign policy experts complained about Obama was he gave great speeches to allies but then expected allies to do all the work. The Pivot to Asia was a great example of how that failed. His plan but he expected the US's Asians allies to carry it out. Asian allies expect the US to do all the dirty work. It's failure showed how reluctant the US and it's allies are to take on China. Now you have Trump. He wanted to take on North Korea and no US ally stepped up where he was relegated to expecting China, the enemy, to carry out US foreign policy. The way Trump is going at it, his ultimate end would be to turn China into another North Korea, the poorest and most isolated country and the worst nightmare to US foreign policy experts... The mightiest military alliance in the history of the world and they were too chicken to take on North Korea with a few nukes. Do you think the US's Asian allies want a country next door that can do a million times worse to them than North Korea can muster. Maybe their counting on the Chinese to revolt because they lost the love from Americans. Trump's foreign policy increases the likelihood of war. How many allies are going to sacrifice their people for the US when all they get is losing the China market to sell to because that's what Trump wants? The only thing Trump can offer is more US market share to make up for their losses but then that goes against everything his trade war promised to American voters.

China has an underground economy. That's why Chinese can afford to buy cars that US experts following their statistics say Chinese cannot afford. An underground economy says Chinese people have initiative to get what they want without the government. Americans live under a nanny state where they expect the government to solve all their problems. If their kids get bad grades or their schools underperform, they think the government throwing money at it will solve the problem when it's just you and your kid don't value learning. Americans think if US outsourced jobs are denied from China, it stops China cold because that's what would happen if they were in that situation.

The Chinese will adjust and it's for the better for the world. Everything the US does to stop it are all acts of war. Trump is not working to isolate China. He's working to have control over China like how all of the US allies are under the US's control hence why they folded or will fold so easily to Trump. China is not them. That's why China has a Silicon Valley and they don't. That's why China is the 2nd most powerful country and they're not. And China is threatening the number one spot while they never will. They tried to stop China with technology embargos and all it did was make China do it themselves. They can follow their stereotypes so they have nothing to worry about... but they are all about worry for a future not under their control.

An excellent reply... multiple likes.

What do you think China would be like if it was totally devoid of American made goods.... and culture you know NBA music movies etc.?

tidalwave · Oct 7, 2018

Viktor Jav said:
Now you are just attempting to move to goalposts of this argument, by adding more and more points to the original argument until it is derail.
After pointing out this obvious attempt at a fallacy of yours there is 2 possible explanation to what you raise, even though they are clearly out context.

1) In a HYPOTHETICAL (note that I am quoting it in capital letters to make it clear to you that I am not asuating what bloomberg says to be true). The chip could be inserted into the motherboard by a subcontractor in the system. In many cases as a cost saving measure, governments often sublease projects to civilian contractors who in turn not always prescribe to the exacting levels of scrutiny or security.
2) In the modern area, programming software are often similar if not downright copied from one hardware to another. In this instance, a chip dealing in terms of software programs and not wires and signal traces as you claimed can identify software that are used to control communications and in turn utilize them. Heck we got civilian hacking software capable of remotely accessing a computer drive to download it's data. And that is without a chip, just a malicious software.

But while hardware hack is a very advantageous tactic for China to employ seeing as it is the foremost assembler of electronics. It has one major Achilles heel, it leaves a trace. So the agency behind this supposed hack must be either very confident or very naive.
A safer way would be to intercept the package during transit to implant the malware to ensure plausible denial, but that can be done by any third party with the right resources.

It's not possible to insert a chip to motherboard by any subcontractor.

Read my posts with Anylvsrthng

tidalwave · Oct 7, 2018

Worst case analysis may needed.
Let's say losing US market and along with some others has hurted China and China not able surpass US in nominal GDP and that's US's goal all along , with sole super power in military and economy.

China has stuck in the middle income trap, hovering below $10k per yr per Capita GDP.

But this would also rid of China dependence on US tech, able to achieve 80% chip self sufficiency in 2025 along with full array of Semiconductor suppoeting industries such as equipment and materials.

No more Boeing. It will be replaced by domestic ones within the country and Airbus for international travel.

And China continue to become a stronger military power.

At the end, worst case scenario, China will stuck in middle income trap for average person or near bottom level high income rank.

At the same times able to achieve technology independence from US.

Also due to US sabotage of Belt and Road project and falling revenue, China unable to complete the project as evidenced by recent countries voiced against it probably due to US pressure.

So, instead China should concentrate on other projects that it can control such as Tibet Water to xin-jiang, or establishment of moon base and exploration of planets and capturing meteorites for exotic metal.etc.

tidalwave · Oct 7, 2018

With US hegemony on earth , China feet and hand are bound, the only way out for China is through exploration space outhere after achieve financial, technology , food independence.

Trade War with China

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