Trade War with China

Hendrik_2000 said:

hat is exactly the problem with Greek They h.ave sense of entitlement deserving or not A democratic government that is pandering to the popular demand. The system work for a while because they borrow money for consumption and not for building productive infrastructure Until they can't borrow no more than problem start cropping up and the end result is decline in living standard

It is pole opposite of what happened in Far east where the government tell the people NOBODY OWE ANYBODY A LIVING if you want to eat WORK! No Union No welfare, no entitlement
You can see the result prosperity is Far East and malaise in South Europe
Coming back to Piraeus port that almost went bankrupt now that the Chinese take over it is humming with activity and employed more people than before,upgrade the port,streamline management

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This is quite an oversimpification. At decades of '80-90's a massive "de-industralisation" took over the place .My hometown, Patras a small city about 250.000 ppl was home of some massive industries."Piraiki-Patraiki"( Once the biggest textile industry in Europe with factories in Patras, Piraeus,Thessaloniki, Syria, Germany), "EGL papermills" the biggest of its kind in Balkans, "Pirelli Tyres", "Madison lingeries", "Misko-Barilla" pastas industry , "Algida-Wall's" ice cream and milk factory , "Coca-Cola" and dozens of smaller industrial plants mostly textile and plastics manufacturing units. Now them all closed or move to countries with lower salaries...You can follow the story i think that capitalist sh@t ! Greece once upon a time produced kitchens,refrigerators,tv's,laundry machines, buses , traktors...also assembly lines for Nissan-Datsun, and Citroen under licence... Bad political decisions, the introduction of the country in the EU where Euros cannot devalue independant like good old Drachma :/ and of course EU directives which profit the Big ones."Greece must be the tourist place for Europe and must not compete with major industrial and agriculture centers. Sad story...

Look, i'm aware that COSCO is doing just bussiness. Piraeus is now the main entrance of Chinese goods in EU ( sea route of BRI) . But i have an idealistic, i have to admit, belief that COSCO and Chinese enterpises that WILL come to Greece must be sensitive for workers rights .Then we have a win-win situation

2handedswordsman said:

This is quite an oversimpification. At decades of '80-90's a massive "de-industralisation" took over the place .My hometown, Patras a small city about 250.000 ppl was home of some massive industries."Piraiki-Patraiki"( Once the biggest textile industry in Europe with factories in Patras, Piraeus,Thessaloniki, Syria, Germany), "EGL papermills" the biggest of its kind in Balkans, "Pirelli Tyres", "Madison lingeries", "Misko-Barilla" pastas industry , "Algida-Wall's" ice cream and milk factory , "Coca-Cola" and dozens of smaller industrial plants mostly textile and plastics manufacturing units. Now them all closed or move to countries with lower salaries...You can follow the story i think that capitalist sh@t ! Greece once upon a time produced kitchens,refrigerators,tv's,laundry machines, buses , traktors...also assembly lines for Nissan-Datsun, and Citroen under licence... Bad political decisions, the introduction of the country in the EU where Euros cannot devalue independant like good old Drachma :/ and of course EU directives which profit the Big ones."Greece must be the tourist place for Europe and must not compete with major industrial and agriculture centers. Sad story...

Look, i'm aware that COSCO is doing just bussiness. Piraeus is now the main entrance of Chinese goods in EU ( sea route of BRI) . But i have an idealistic, i have to admit, belief that COSCO and Chinese enterpises that WILL come to Greece must be sensitive for workers rights .Then we have a win-win situation

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Now did you ever ask why are those company move to lower salaries country ?
Because they can't hack it anymore with high tax and ever increasing salary demand from union for higher wages and benefit. I don't blame them. Money does not come from tree. And all those goodies of High pension 80% of last wages only after 35 years of working resulting in high tax and borrowing. many went into retirement in their mid-50s.!
Free medicare subsidized education . Yeah it get you vote but who is going to pay for all those goodies?

Meanwhile there is no money left to upgrade infrastructure, industry, education etc. You end up with dilapidated infrastructure, industry, education that can't compete

Yeah you can live in utopia for a while until the reality hit you in the head

In Singapore there is no pension You save yourself and government match whatever you save . the government provide good and basic health care but eventually it incumbent upon family to take care of their sick member
They provide cheap and decent housing but not free



Greek voters are headed to the polls Sunday for a national referendum on whether to endorse an economic deal that’s no longer on the table.

Welcome to the bizarre world of the Greek economy and the perils of an out-of-control welfare state.

The socialist government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is pushing voters to say “no” — though that would cut Athens off from European Union funding and credit and plunge the economy into deeper chaos.

How did Greece get to this? Simple: Since the return of democracy in 1974, its government has spent vastly more than it took in, with bloated public payrolls and pensions — even as the private-sector workforce, which drives production, remained low. Plus, people get away with just not paying taxes.

For decades, this brought recurring crises — which Athens resolved by devaluing the currency to make it easy to repay its debts.

Joining the Euro removed that option — but Greece didn’t change its ways.

The pension system is the poster-child of the problem: Until recently, Greeks could retire after just 35 years and start collecting 80 percent of their final salary; many went into retirement in their mid-50s.

Today, Greece has only four working people for every three retirees, pensions consume more than half of all government revenue — and the population is rapidly aging.

“Austerity” programs of recent years raised retirement to 62 and cut pensions to 60 percent of income — but it’s not enough.

Since taking office early this year, Tsipras has talked of boosting retirement to age 67 —but only in 10 years’ time. He’s also resisted raising cash by other means. Greece promised to sell off 50 billion euros of state assets by the end of 2015, but has only sold 6 percent of its goal.

Bottom line: By promising to give citizens far more than it can deliver, Athens has accumulated debt so high, it’s literally unpayable. The only question is how it’s going to welch — via EU-negotiated loan forgiveness and restructuring, by total default or by exiting the Euro so it can go back to devaluation.

There’s a real lesson here for places like New York and New Jersey that refuse to address their own public-pensions woes or pare down their reliance on borrowing. Both states are a lot closer to Greece than they’d like to believe.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Now did you ever ask why are those company move to lower salaries country ?
Because they can't hack it anymore with high tax and ever increasing salary demand from union for higher wages and benefit. I don't blame them. Money does not come from tree. And all those goodies of High pension 80% of last wages only after 35 years of working resulting in high tax and borrowing. many went into retirement in their mid-50s.!
Free medicare subsidized education . Yeah it get you vote but who is going to pay for all those goodies?

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Do you know the tendency of the rate of profit to fall ? Marx wrote about this. Who will pay the bills? Workers of course. Capitalists just move their bussinesses to other countries or squeeze workers salaries etc for profit to remain steady of growing. I agree that public sector in Greece was overgrown and a lot of people had rediculous benefits (pensions,salaries). Not far from now workers at the public sector could get a 70% pension at the age of 45. But you have to remember i'm not a fan of the modern capitalist state of Greece. Also have in mind that other significant events happened these decades i'm referring to such as the fall of the Eastern Bloc and the capitalist opening of PRC where workers with a good-to-moderate skills where offered free to be squeezed
On the other hand the pensions had already been paid by workers at the form of taxes and contributions to the state from their salaries.

Hendrik_2000 said:

In Singapore there is no pension You save yourself and government match whatever you save . the government provide good and basic health care but eventually it incumbent upon family to take care of their sick member
They provide cheap and decent housing but not free

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Click to expand...

No , No ,NO...no pension after working 35-40 years? That's an old man deserves after beeing squeezed at the most productive years of his life ? Recently Austria voted for working hours to be 12...are you also fan of that?? That's not the humanity i'm dreaming of...we have god damn 2018 AI and robotics are taking over the place. We should not fight and searching for the basics...

Hendrik_2000 said:

The socialist government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is pushing voters to say “no” — though that would cut Athens off from European Union funding and credit and plunge the economy into deeper chaos.

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LOL Mr Tsipras comedy circus is a joke of a socialist government. The measures he took are all neoliberal.

Greece had the opportunity to leave EU. There's nothing bad trying to restore it's productive capabilities with devalueing it's own currency and trying to find partnership and cooperation with the emerging bloc leading by China for example. Now we are in a trap. There's very low production activity , salaries suppressed in an effort to attract foreign bussinesses. But its difficult to compete 3rld world salaries...sad to day there's a term here , called "Sinification" referring to Deng's strategy offering to western companies very very cheap workforce. Now we're trapped with prices same with major european economies , but with income cut to 1/2 or more,if you have income at all. Unemployment at young people is about 50% . Plus the 24% VAT. I can't see a F...ing way. Only a revolution will save our asses from poverty and depression.

Concluding, we didn'mention at all the Greek commercial shipping cartel. As you possible know Greece one of the biggest commercial fleet in the world if not the biggest. These poor guys have all their ships with flags of Panama or other tax heavens raised, avoiding taxes of Greek state. Them also are the commercial bank cartel (the central bank of Greece is not controlled by the state) which extends to the whole eastern europe...back in 2014 Greece took a 13 bln euro loan. 10 of them went to save these banks who didn't pass the troika's stress tests.Thats a huge irony...I'm sure that these people have very big accounts at Switzwerland or Luxemburg...

sorry for this being too personal but this story hurts me a lot

Hendrik_2000 said:

That is exactly the problem with Greek ...

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I had been there several times (business) before the crisis hit, always wondered about this:

since the landscape looks the same in Greece as in Bulgaria, southern parts of former Yugoslavia, Albania, ...

how came Greeks drove new Western cars, they had the airport connected to commuter trains (I went from Athens to Loutraki) etc. etc.??

I guess it's pretty much answered in the NYT article you posted Today at 8:38 PM

now that
2handedswordsman
seeks salvation in Lenin, even gave me Imperialism ... here, LOL

Jura said:

2handedswordsman
seeks salvation in Lenin, even gave me Imperialism ... here, LOL

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These things i'm providing are facts, there's no problem to have different views and opinions . We are just discussing , if you have anything to contribute except meaningless LOL's you are welcome my friend. At the end , history will judge us all

2handedswordsman said:

Do you know the tendency of the rate of profit to fall ? Marx wrote about this. Who will pay the bills? Workers of course. Capitalists just move their bussinesses to other countries or squeeze workers salaries etc for profit to remain steady of growing. I agree that public sector in Greece was overgrown and a lot of people had rediculous benefits (pensions,salaries). Not far from now workers at the public sector could get a 70% pension at the age of 45. But you have to remember i'm not a fan of the modern capitalist state of Greece. Also have in mind that other significant events happened these decades i'm referring to such as the fall of the Eastern Bloc and the capitalist opening of PRC where workers with a good-to-moderate skills where offered free to be squeezed
On the other hand the pensions had already been paid by workers at the form of taxes and contributions to the state from their salaries.



No , No ,NO...no pension after working 35-40 years? That's an old man deserves after beeing squeezed at the most productive years of his life ? Recently Austria voted for working hours to be 12...are you also fan of that?? That's not the humanity i'm dreaming of...we have god damn 2018 AI and robotics are taking over the place. We should not fight and searching for the basics...

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It's interesting that you think working for one's keep is "being squeezed". It shows a sense of entitlement.

It's a logical progression.Let's take an random example.A German clothing company moves its factory from Munchen to Daka,Bangladesh. There it could employ workers , often childs for "god's shake" for rediculous salaries, maximizing it's profits. If this isn't squeeze, probably i have to move to the madhouse. And this is the rule not the exception. Thats pure exploitation lets drop off the masks and talk truthful. Chinese workers faced that back in 80's-90's. Working for foreigners who send the great profits back to their homelands. That's why Trump's trade war and antichinese rhetoric makes me want to puke . The "two yuans" politique and centralism of PRC prevented China to be for another time of its history a colony and a vast labour camp.

You know at a freemarket economy the employer extracts value from worker. Thats a fact. So, there's not an equal cooperation, thats exploitation, economically and philoshophically. Why not work together and share the profit? Have you ever asked yourself why the worker have to work a month in advance before he's being paid? Does he owe anything to the employer? No, thats only one of the capitalist laws

Sorry if anger hides in my words but i hate when people turn their heads from truth like ostriches hide their heads in the ground to avoid dangers

2handedswordsman said:

It's a logical progression.Let's take an random example.A German clothing company moves its factory from Munchen to Daka,Bangladesh. There it could employ workers , often childs for "god's shake" for rediculous salaries, maximizing it's profits. If this isn't squeeze, probably i have to move to the madhouse. And this is the rule not the exception. Thats pure exploitation lets drop off the masks and talk truthful. Chinese workers faced that back in 80's-90's. Working for foreigners who send the great profits back to their homelands. That's why Trump's trade war and antichinese rhetoric makes me want to puke . The "two yuans" politique and centralism of PRC prevented China to be for another time of its history a colony and a vast labour camp.

You know at a freemarket economy the employer extracts value from worker. Thats a fact. So, there's not an equal cooperation, thats exploitation, economically and philoshophically. Why not work together and share the profit? Have you ever asked yourself why the worker have to work a month in advance before he's being paid? Does he owe anything to the employer? No, thats only one of the capitalist laws

Sorry if anger hides in my words but i hate when people turn their heads from truth like ostriches hide their heads in the ground to avoid dangers

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If you have no money that is the only alternative you get, either that or go hungry. Turning sweat power into real money But that is not the end itself depending whether you have effective government or not If you do then slowly over time they increase the salary and improve people life It is downtrodden path that many far east country follow You think Japan suddenly become high tech overnight ? You must be dreaming Read Japanese economic history child labor is common in Japan during 20's and 30's

Yes China start with textile, toy and plastic stuff and as you said paid pittance But progressing from that low base and turning sweat labor into money China develop industry , infrastructure, education etc. Now after 3 decades China GDP grow by 30 time.During 80's China GDP per capita is only $300. Now it is like $10000 See what hard work and capitalist system can do for you it is miracle China's labor cost is now getting more and more expensive and so all those low wages jobs are migrating to Bangladesh, Vietnam, Laos etc Now is their turn to follow China's path
But here is the clincher you have to start from somewhere only getting angry and not doing anything will get you nowhere

solarz said:

If you want to compare US to Europe, then you need to compare it to the entirety of Europe. Once you do that, you'll realize that Europe has rich countries and poor countries, just like the US has rich states and poor states.

The difference is, in Europe, only the rich countries have good social welfare. In the US, all states, rich or poor, have more or less the same welfare. It's the poor states that have no economic prospects but can still dole out welfare where you'll find the most drug problems.

As for Chinese billionaires, it's not that they're exceptional, but that the current socio-political structure of China rewards contribution and punishes greed.

In countries with unscrupulous oligarchs, it's not the fact that they're wealthy that's the problem, but the fact that the country they live in rewards greed.

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I'm glad you realize there are political systems that reward greed. Have you considered why such systems exist when we can look at america and see that it clearly does not benefit the majority of working americans? Keep in mind that america allegedly has a democratic system. The reason is that wealth is inextricable from political power. The capitalist class reinvest the wealth produced by the workers into changing the laws of the land to favor capital. It doesn't matter if there is a democratic or authoritarian system, it doesn't matter if corruption is legal like in america or illegal like in China. The rational action for a capitalist is to turn profits into more profits using whatever means possible and buying political power is quite cheap. When bribing a few senators cost less that opening a new factory and gives better returns which option is the better choice?
And why can you claim China punishes greed? It is because the Chinese state arose out of a worker's movement that took power away from the capitalist class, empowering the working class. Hence, it is called the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, ever other country except maybe Cuba and the DPRK are under the Dictatorship of Capital. But there are forces in China who are trying to reverse the progress made by the Chinese people and the CPC. Is it in the interest of a Chinese capitalist to operate under a political system that favors the working class? No, he would be much better off under a system like the one that exists in america. So for the Chinese capitalist who has wealth and lives in an unfavorable political system, the rational course of actions is to use part of that wealth to change the politics of China. Such a change harms the majority of Chinese people and should be opposed.

Hendrik_2000 said:

If you have no money that is the only alternative you get, either that or go hungry. Turning sweat power into real money But that is not the end itself depending whether you have effective government or not If you do then slowly over time they increase the salary and improve people life It is downtrodden path that many far east country follow You think Japan suddenly become high tech overnight ? You must be dreaming Read Japanese economic history child labor is common in Japan during 20's and 30's

Yes China start with textile, toy and plastic stuff and as you said paid pittance But progressing from that low base and turning sweat labor into money China develop industry , infrastructure, education etc. Now after 3 decades China GDP grow by 30 time.During 80's China GDP per capita is only $300. Now it is like $10000 See what hard work and capitalist system can do for you it is miracle China's labor cost is now getting more and more expensive and so all those low wages jobs are migrating to Bangladesh, Vietnam, Laos etc Now is their turn to follow China's path
But here is the clincher you have to start from somewhere only getting angry and not doing anything will get you nowhere

Click to expand...

China's development is only a miracle because of the number of people involved. All industrializing countries have followed a similar pattern, UK, Germany, Japan, USA, USSR. But isn't that an interesting list of countries? Two are "free markets", two were authoritarian state capitalist, and the USSR was not a market economy at all. I would say the USSR going from a semi feudal society to exploring space in 40 years while winning a civil war and a world war is more of a miracle than China's reform and opening up which occurred in an era of peace. The key is not capitalism, the key is improving the productivity of labor. That way the working people can produce what they need and also be able to invent new things and new ideas. All capitalism does is tie the improvement of labor productivity to the profit motive while throwing away planning. The capitalist economy prioritizes what is profitable, not necessarily what improves productivity. There are incredibly inefficient allocation of labor occurring under capitalism right now. For example PhD scientists are working for advertising corporations like google or facebook using mathematical modeling to increase internet ad clicks (Chinese "tech" companies are doing the same). I'm pretty sure the USSR would not have won WWII if it's scientists were dreaming up better ways to make advertisements.
China is lucky because the CPC still has the power to direct the economy into productive development, but as I detailed in my response to solarz, there are reactionary forces in China that are trying to bring about a full capitalist restoration. This is why limiting the wealth and political power of the capitalist class in China is important. The end goal should be the complete elimination of the capitalist class in China. Or if you prefer a more positive perspective, the end goal is to make every single Chinese person own the businesses and industry of China, that is, to make every Chinese person a capitalist. It doesn't matter which perspective you take the functional result is the same.
Finally, do you really think Bangladesh, Vietnam, Laos can develop using China's path? What about the various African countries? There is an environmental cost to industrialization and the costs impact every country and everyone on earth. That door is closed now, China will be the last industrialized country in the traditional sense of the word. Newer options may arise in the future though.

2handedswordsman said:

It's a logical progression.Let's take an random example.A German clothing company moves its factory from Munchen to Daka,Bangladesh. There it could employ workers , often childs for "god's shake" for rediculous salaries, maximizing it's profits. If this isn't squeeze, probably i have to move to the madhouse. And this is the rule not the exception. Thats pure exploitation lets drop off the masks and talk truthful. Chinese workers faced that back in 80's-90's. Working for foreigners who send the great profits back to their homelands. That's why Trump's trade war and antichinese rhetoric makes me want to puke . The "two yuans" politique and centralism of PRC prevented China to be for another time of its history a colony and a vast labour camp.

You know at a freemarket economy the employer extracts value from worker. Thats a fact. So, there's not an equal cooperation, thats exploitation, economically and philoshophically. Why not work together and share the profit? Have you ever asked yourself why the worker have to work a month in advance before he's being paid? Does he owe anything to the employer? No, thats only one of the capitalist laws

Sorry if anger hides in my words but i hate when people turn their heads from truth like ostriches hide their heads in the ground to avoid dangers

Click to expand...

No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to take a job.

Chinese workers are willing to take on low wage jobs because its a much better alternative to not having such jobs. In the 1980's, before we came to Canada, and before the market reforms came to Shanghai, my mom was a doctor and my dad was a university lecturer. My mom's salary was 60 yuan a month, my dad 45 yuan. Those were the wages paid under the government controlled economy.

My cousin barely finished high school and went to work for the Shanghai Volkswagen factory in the 90's. I don't know what exactly his salary was, but you can be certain it was only a fraction of the salary paid to a western worker. Yet, even that fraction made him quite well off at the time compared to everyone else in China. So who's being exploited here?