The War in the Ukraine

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
Betting on the West on losing interest is a dangerous game. The US stayed in Afghanistan for 20 years and bled $2 trillion doing it. If this is Russia's plan they're literally doing the military equivalent of thinking they can stay solvent longer than the market stays irrational.

Nop, war fatigue in Europe is already visible. With the exception of Poland, the Baltic states and Britain, all other countries, especially France and Germany, will push for talks in the autumn.

Regardless of how the Ukrainian counteroffensive ends, negotiations will begin immediately after it.

Also while Ukraine is weaker than Russia, they are not helpless. Even if Western help stopped this second the majority of pledged military equipment has already arrived, just the equipment currently in country can make any occupation attempt extremely expensive for Russia.

Josep Borrell a few days ago: "If we don't support Ukraine, Ukraine will fall in a matter of days".

Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orban a few days ago: "Ukraine is an economically non-existent country. We pay Ukrainians pensions and salaries, we support their state administration, their health care. It is clear that this state of affairs cannot be maintained in the long term. Аs soon as the USA and the European Union decide to no longer finance the functioning of the Ukrainian state, the war will end immediately."
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Betting on the West on losing interest is a dangerous game. The US stayed in Afghanistan for 20 years and bled $2 trillion doing it. If this is Russia's plan they're literally doing the military equivalent of thinking they can stay solvent longer than the market stays irrational.

Also while Ukraine is weaker than Russia, they are not helpless. Even if Western help stopped this second the majority of pledged military equipment has already arrived, just the equipment currently in country can make any occupation attempt extremely expensive for Russia.

That’s actually an impressive number of misconceptions to pack into such a short post

- America and the west, even at the very height of their power and wealth, never amounted to ‘the market’, never mind today.

- American military boots are not (officially) engaged in Ukraine. That makes it a fundamentally different situation to Iraq or Afghanistan, where the US was directly involved in combat operations.

- Military hardware doesn’t fight wars without soldiers or logistics, and while soldiers might fight without money when they are defending their own homes, not even the writers of Red Dawn could suspend reality enough to think they can operate tanks or aircraft as a resistance force while under occupation.

The west is already loosing patience and interest with Ukraine, very publicly, with America especially desperate to put an end to its European misadventures to start another, bigger military misadventure in Asia.

If the much hyped Ukrainian great offensive fails, it would be a stretch to bet the US will stay onboard for 20 months never mind 20 years.

Despite the west throwing the proverbial economic kitchen sink at Russia, it’s economy is doing better than many of the G7. With China’s economic support to boot, I don’t think Putin is particularly worried about Russia’s ability to go the distance economically.

Given how hard the Ukrainians have fought, it’s obvious occupation will be costly and difficult for Russia. But it’s not like NATO is given them any acceptable alternatives, having already literally coming out to say publicly that what’s left of Ukraine will be absorbed into NATO at the first opportunity. If that’s not forcing Russia to commit to total annexation of Ukraine, I don’t know what will.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
That’s actually an impressive number of misconceptions to pack into such a short post

- America and the west, even at the very height of their power and wealth, never amounted to ‘the market’, never mind today.

- American military boots are not (officially) engaged in Ukraine. That makes it a fundamentally different situation to Iraq or Afghanistan, where the US was directly involved in combat operations.

- Military hardware doesn’t fight wars without soldiers or logistics, and while soldiers might fight without money when they are defending their own homes, not even the writers of Red Dawn could suspend reality enough to think they can operate tanks or aircraft as a resistance force while under occupation.

The west is already loosing patience and interest with Ukraine, very publicly, with America especially desperate to put an end to its European misadventures to start another, bigger military misadventure in Asia.

If the much hyped Ukrainian great offensive fails, it would be a stretch to bet the US will stay onboard for 20 months never mind 20 years.

Despite the west throwing the proverbial economic kitchen sink at Russia, it’s economy is doing better than many of the G7. With China’s economic support to boot, I don’t think Putin is particularly worried about Russia’s ability to go the distance economically.

Given how hard the Ukrainians have fought, it’s obvious occupation will be costly and difficult for Russia. But it’s not like NATO is given them any acceptable alternatives, having already literally coming out to say publicly that what’s left of Ukraine will be absorbed into NATO at the first opportunity. If that’s not forcing Russia to commit to total annexation of Ukraine, I don’t know what will.
Not sure what your first point was about since it doesn't relate to my post, that was an idiom I burrowed from investing to refer to this current situation and the danger of assuming that the West will be logical.

For your second point, all the merrier for the US. This is everything they dreamed of and more. Europe gets weakened and have to rely on the US for security, Russia gets bogged down in a quagmire of their own making and US's MIC gets plenty of advertisement. Compared to wasting blood and treasure on wars of debatable benefits in the ME this is almost a pie in the sky for US strategists. Note that almost NOTHING the US has given thus far will have any relevance in a pacific conflict with China.

On the last point, there's almost no indication that the West is about to pull the rug from under Ukraine, the latest arm package announced was not even a week ago.

Ultimately, if you go back to the early days of this thread, many takes have been hilariously wrong despite being backed by sound logic, both by new and old posters, so I don't really see any point in being condescending as none of us actually read the minds of those moving the chess pieces, nor are the predictions actually all that accurate.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Recent posts have been teetering on the edge of going off topic or have already done so. Please refrain from going off topic.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I made my prediction of west pulling support accounting for both outcomes. The precondition was holding a good defensible border, at least full Donbass and Luhansk, and all economically relevant areas nearby (rails and power stations).

If west continuously support Ukraine it would be favorable to drain them at greater rate than Russia exhaust itself. Russia can still sustain the fight at current intensity indefinitely.

If west stops the support it is even better.

In other words the irrational behaviour of west is accounted for. Continuous support is still favorable to Russia.

Only way for Russia to lose is suffer military set back and thus unable to sustain current leisure way of fighting.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Lots of Iskanders have been launched but I'm sure someone will post more about this. Expect the missiles to be targeting what's left of the Ukrainian AD, along with the usual depots and deployment areas.

An artillery duel between two SPGs, one a Giatsint-S and the other a Polish supplied Krab. The Giatsint-S took three shots to knock down the Krab.

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Bakhmut in burning hell. All the fires are in the so called 'citadel' area.

 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
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