The recent new tank concepts are pointless designs

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Expensive, complex, resource costly. Things to avoid for a MBT.

Honestly the upgraded Leopards, M1s, Challengers, Merkavas, and Leclercs are already peak MBT. Complicating things for the proposed benefit of improved anti-infantry and firepower against modernised heavy MBTs is a bit pointless. Okay it might be necessary for 130mm against something like an armoured up 99A but 120mm and 125mm are absolutely enough to at least mission kill a MBT of any size provided the shot lands somewhere.

It seems like these newer designs want to make use of unmanned turret and design the entire tank around the APS. This is the only genuine advantage in any modern battlefield, urban or not. APS on 4th gen tanks are more an afterthought and questionable effectiveness when it's just slapped on the turret with all the associated sensors exposed.

These are all a step in the right direction but do they justify the cost? Almost certainly not because the counters are going to be far easier to mass produce and put into service than setting up entire new production for new gen MBTs. Until adversaries field truly next level protection and anti-tank firepower, this isn't necessary as no APS are going to guarantee protection from anti tank artillery, guided anti tank shells, drone and helicopter ATGMs - attrition. Also seems like the armour on existing modernised 4th gen MBTs have equal or even superior armour than the proposals. Unmanned turret means better crew survivability but easier to mission kill the turret mounted firepower and/or sensors. T-14's turret armour is nowhere near 4th gen MBTs, outside of Russian MBTs.
European NATO countries are planning on buying thousands of tanks in the next decade. It would be stupid to use old designs if you're going to spend that much money.

The new tank designs are definitely better and more survivable. I don't think anyone has solved the problem of how to protect tanks against modern ATGMs and drones, so these designs are the best option available. These tanks are also designed to operate in an environment of air superiority, so drone attacks are a secondary concern.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
The new tank designs are definitely better and more survivable.

They aren't that new though. The KF-51 is still a Leopard 2 with a new external armor array while the EMBT is a Leopard 2 hull with a Leclerc turret, both make use the Leclerc's autoloader and they come with fancy sheet-metal covers that probably won't make it to the final design because it will make maintenance and repair a nightmare.


On the other hand, it is interesting how russian and western designs are still heading in different ways, despite the "westernization" of the former.

Russia opts for a smaller, unmanned turret with the crew enclosed within the hull while europe's retains the crew of 4 despite the autoloader due to sensor workload and the turrets get even bigger.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Large portion of tanks and other vehicles in Ukraine, on both sides, have been destroyed with regular dump artillery.

Arguments against tanks can be used as arguments against all other AFV's but even death trap like BMP-3 has more protection than simple pick-up truck.
no one said AFV won’t be needed. the question is does MBT really offer enough above and beyond those already offered by other AFVs to justify their continued existence as a separate and very costly type.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
They aren't that new though. The KF-51 is still a Leopard 2 with a new external armor array while the EMBT is a Leopard 2 hull with a Leclerc turret, both make use the Leclerc's autoloader and they come with fancy sheet-metal covers that probably won't make it to the final design because it will make maintenance and repair a nightmare.


On the other hand, it is interesting how russian and western designs are still heading in different ways, despite the "westernization" of the former.

Russia opts for a smaller, unmanned turret with the crew enclosed within the hull while europe's retains the crew of 4 despite the autoloader due to sensor workload and the turrets get even bigger.
KF51 is a Leopard 2 hull with a new turret. No both do not use Leclerc’s automatic loader both do use automatic loaders but the KF51 has two drums for 20 rounds of 130mm. The EMBT is just a Leclerc turret with the existing 22 rounds of 120mm.
Both however have sacrificed hull magazines for that fourth man. The Turret on the KF51 is larger due to the larger ammunition. A 120mm round is about 39 inches in length. The case alone on a 130mm shell is about 36 inches. So you need a bigger bustle to load that ammunition.
Hell the Russians want to up gun T14 to a 152mm down the line which will require a lot of work to make the carousel loader fit that.
- Trophy APS and GALIX soft kill APS
- 130 mm gun
- Organic UAV
- Acoustic sensor
- Commander periscope with integrated MG
- 30 mm gun with AHEAD ammo
- Has an autoloader but the 4th crew member remains in as the UAV and 30 mm gun operator
- 360 degree awareness
at this point in time No EMBT doesn’t have a 130mm gun. It’s got the same French L52 120mm gun as the Leclerc.
1- The 130 mm gun serves no purpose
Today Yes 120mm smooth bore is the dominant tank gun of choice. However it’s been in service since the 1970s, same for the Soviet 125mm. As far back as the mid 1980s concern was on the rise that modern Russian tanks would be upgraded to a point where 120mm would be less effective. In the 1990s development of 140mm,130mm, 120mm ETC guns began. Though generally even the latest MBT on East and west can still be killed by shot to the side or rear. The want remains to overmatch your adversary not just via penetration but also the ability to sit back out of his range and plink him. Fair fights get troops killed.

2- Their contribution to the battlefield is almost negligible compared to their cost
Not likely, as yet there Is nothing that brings a tanks ability to bring in high velocity on demand fire support like a tank. ATGM and artillery are effective but they are slow to bring into the fight often able to be nurtured or disabled by knocking out radio or specialized troops used to call in such. Air strikes are just another form of artillery with the same issue. ATGM can be dodged or countered by passive or active countermeasures. The argument you are making is sound for the battleship but any alternative you could generate for an MBT is still a tank just with less survival.
3- They don't solve the three fundamental problems that tanks are facing today
KF51 advertises a top attack protection system. Which is one of the most successful means being used to to destroy MBT in modern conflicts. Most of these have hard kill APS systems again nurturing the first attack. Upon launching an ATGM at a tank the location of the launch will be know and most Hard kill systems then follow up by sending that data to the targeting system. However the most effective Anti ATGM system already exists outside the tank and yet organic to Tank formations. Infantry. Trained infantry. This has been lacking in Russian military operations as the Russians Infantry formations are primarily Conscripts. Conscripts that haven’t been called up in large numbers. Well armored crews require more training and are normally come contracted.

4- Loitering munitions on tanks make no sense
Actually back to the first quote.
1- The 130 mm gun serves no purpose
Longer range gun longer range sensors hence Drones. 130mm and 152mm tank guns have potential for use Beyond line of sight. With UAS systems now as small as ATGMs it’s a logical option to expand the operating capabilities. Yes these can and are being put on trucks and APCs even IFVs as well.
5- A tank can not defend against UAVs effectively
Which is where Shorad or IADS systems come into play. Since the end of the Second World War the commanders “air defense” weapon has been shifted to increasingly a defensive weapon vs ground attacks. So yes you are right here. But that’s not it’s job that would be for a SPAAG or SAM battery to do. The RWS with weapons in a Anti UAS role are more to defend agains smaller threats.
1. Hybrid electric transmission to improve acoustic stealth, IR stealth, fuel efficiency, instantaneous power and have the capability to silently idle.
Western designers are already looking at this have been since WW1. However even if the engine is as quiet as a mouse the track and running gear make noise so it’s never going to be quiet. You can shift the sound level. Higher pitched sounds like of a Gas turbine engine propagate less over distance which is why the Abrams “whispering death”.
IR is also an issue the battery may be cold as ice but the second the electric motor starts friction and heat. Just moving around the suspension is going to build up heat.
BEV of a tank is a pipe dream unless you have a nuclear reactor in the power pack.
2. Unmanned turret like T-14. In Ukraine the biggest problem is detonation of turret ammo causing entire tank to blow, and top attack munitions hitting the thin turret armor. With an unmanned turret + autoloader there are less rounds available but much more survivability, as the entire turret can be made smaller and more armored.
The main survival issue is compartmentalization or lack there in. Russia tanks have stowed extra ammo in the turret. And of course under the turret. Now different tanks have tried to minimize this with compartmented magazines. The most common scheme being a set number of rounds in the hull often the right side opposite the drivers hole combined with a set number in either a ready rack or automatic loader in the bustle in Leopard 2, Leclerc, K2, C1, Type 90, Altay (modified 2 in hull ready rack in bustle). Abrams has a small ammunition compartment in the hull and the majority of its ammunition in the bustle. Now generally speak most the hull ammunition spaces in these tanks is lack luster yet then again the logic is sound to a point. The ammunition is behind the thickest armor of the MBT on the Glacis plate attack from the sides is difficult as you have the Skirt, the track the running gear, wet store of fuel and some additional armor often with ERA tiles these days. As such a few close the compartment though that does seem to be changing. The main reasoning being that if a enemy weapon has penetrated though all of that it’s probably killed the crew already if it hasn’t it’s probably going to penetrate the blast door anyway.
Now the Bustle rack the logic changes. Many here (you know who you are) happy would claim the Abrams or any other bustle ammo rack a weakness. However what you miss is that’s been considered. If a round has penetrated the bustle rack of a tank it’s probably been fired at an angle meaning that it’s probably not penetrated the fire wall or blast doors meaning that the cook off event will be outside the fighting compartment
3. Rear entrance like Merkava to further reduce places with weak top armor. Other tanks all have a turret entrance
Merkava has turret hatches just like any other tank. DC94908A-F60E-493C-A975-9C35C1310642.jpeg
TC sitting in the hatch. source Wiki source https://flic.kr/p/adB8Vf They also have a loaders hatch.
The rear Hatch on the Merkava tank is actually part of compartmentalization of the Ammunition. Though it can be used for other functions the main reason is to allow the crew to rapidly load up ammunition for the main gun. The space in the rear that was later modified into an infantry compartment on Nammer is on Merkava the primary magazine for 120mm rounds. Merkava packs in About 48 rounds the majority are stowed back there with 10 ready in a ready drum located in the bustle of the turret. Israeli war experience often has IDF tanks outnumbered and fighting from reverse slope positions. Merkava like most western tanks is designed with a very large elevation and depression arc vs Russian and even Chinese tanks this is so that they can take a reverse slope fighting position with the tanks behind cover identity targets roll up and make a kill well the other guy in the T72 is wondering how to get his gun to go higher. Then the Merkava rolls back under cover and re positions until he needs to reload at which point a truck of ammo shows up the ramp opens and they start chucking rounds in.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
4. I like the sensors on these proposed tanks but they have some weaknesses. 360 visual awareness they got right. But acoustic sensing is useless if they still run with noisy diesels. That is why it should be paired with hybrid transmission or IEP.
Again it varies from tank to tank, however M1A2 SEP2 before refit had a battery powered sentinel mode. Where in the engine would be off the tank stationary and waiting. I imagine that this is the mode for autistics though it may also be talking about an anti sniper system.
5. Replacing hydraulic actuators with electric motors when possible to avoid ignition or smoke when hit.
Been done. Though mostly for fire protection most modern MBT have been shedding hydraulics where possible especially around the fighting compartment due to both fire and weight. Electric motors are lighter than mechanical ones and transmissions.
laser detector, warning and retaliation system (blinding the laser sender). Next step should be full LiDAR capability to create a quantitative 3D map of the battlefield and be able to share that data with other armored vehicles, and the capability to intensify that beam to attack UAV.
Radar’s are becoming more common on MBT LiDAR would likely trip a laser detector system. Radar might trip a RWR but with Active electric scan being more common that’s less an issue. LiDAR seems like it’s less a defensive system and more a driver system.
Leopards, M1s, Challengers, Merkavas, and Leclercs are already peak MBT.
What I think what's happening tank companies are trying to find reason to sell a completely new design over countries just bolting an APS on an old design.

Leopard 2A7 73 tons
M1A2C 73 tons.
Challanger 3 73 tons.
Merkava 4 weight about71 tons add in windbreaker (trophy) and it’s going up to at least 73 short tons.
Trophy HV added to Abrams “bolt on” added 5000 of additional weight 2.5 tons. Add in era and more and these are really starting to tip the scales.
These tanks are good but anything weighing in @73 short tons is hard to move either by its own power, Combat recovery vehicle, by rail, by truck by ship or on rare rare occasions by air. Now Merkava is less an issue because Israel is such a small nation and if they need to break out the tanks it’s generally a short drive from base to front. However the point stands every new widget adds weight, every new armor upgrade more weight. Now the chassis themselves can take a lot of this could probably go to 80 short tons (which is about the combat weight of these listed) before stuff starts breaking but the support system, the winches on the recovery vehicles, the trailers on the HETS, the flat bed rail cars, the amphibious landing craft… well at 80 tons I doubt even An225 could have taken it. You get the point even before considering bridges and that set of issues these are getting heavier and heavier. Part of the goal of 4th generation MBT programs is to buy back that weight. Consider the K2PL concept comes in at about 66 short tons. Kf51 comes in at 65 short tons, EMBT 67 short tons. Type 10 combat load out 53 tons!!
Consider the age point on technology. Abrams M1A2C Leopard 2A7 Merkava 4 are substantially updated tanks built from hulls and models that date to the 1980s.
I can say from personal experience reaching the edge of 40 years isn’t fun. I sure as hell can’t do what I used to. Challanger 3 is based on Challanger 2 is newer dating to the early 1990s but the British army hasn’t exactly kept it up as they should. Challanger 3 should have been built a decade ago. It’s not a tank for 2035 but 2015.
M1s and Leopards, why are they so heavy and fuel inefficient? Because their role was to be deployed in defensive positions in Europe, not drive on Moscow where they'd consume tons of fuel and then get stuck in a ditch because their ground pressure is so high.
Bogus.
First no tank is fuel efficient.
Abrams is generally fuel hungry but it’s more complicated than an MPG number. Remember that fuel trucks will keep moving and supplying in western armies. They are generally fueled with over 400 gallons and still ranging out hundreds of miles.
SOP in the US Army is 12 hours then resupply. So fuel isn’t the problem. Besides the gas turbine has an almost constant fuel burn moving or standing still. The generally given number is between.3 and .6 MPG for Abrams. Most tanks are at best getting 1 mpg even a Humvee does 10 mpg.
Ground pressure on Abrams (cold war era)14.1psi at its worse. Leopard 2 is about 11.8psi T72 is 12.8 T80 is 13.1 psi. Are these huge substantial differences? Not really.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
no one said AFV won’t be needed. the question is does MBT really offer enough above and beyond those already offered by other AFVs to justify their continued existence as a separate and very costly type.
Sure, they do; they offer-up profits to the MICs above and beyond those already offered by existing platforms!
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Sure, they do; they offer-up profits to the MICs above and beyond those already offered by existing platforms!
Seriously everyone has an MIC.
To keep tanks AFVs and Aircraft ships operating require a lot of servicing and maintenance on a constant level and basis. Just a regular military exercise requires a major amount of TLC before the next mission. Otherwise the tank breaks down.
The constant rebuild and update is extensive and keeps makers going for decades. The short term windfall of a tank buy isn’t what takes in the tax dollars. The profits are the successive upkeep. It doesn’t matter if we are talking KF51 or T72. If you want to keep them in the fight then the investment is needed. Otherwise forget the tank and buy a Toyota. Even then you will need a mechanic to keep it going but it will be a lot more affordable. Look at the third world who can barely keep world war 2 era tanks operating.

Anyway I broke the character limit and wanted to take a little break before the final part of my long long response so the last part.
Hyundai NGMBT

Hyundai NGMBT.jpg


- APS
- 130 mm gun
- Laser
- Multi-purpose missile
- Rising mast sensor
- Unmanned turret and crew capsule in hull
- Organic UAV
- Hybrid propulsion with BEV mode
- Band tracks
- Radar signature reduction and IR camo
- 360 degree radar and EO coverage
- IED detection and defeating system

Then we have this notional concept
notional new generation tank.jpg
……. 105 months ago…… Poland. September 2013…..
The PL01 7EFD35CD-063C-4765-82A8-D9EDFD9D9289.png
It was a Polish concept but it wasn’t an MBT it was a light tank a scout tank packing a 120mm main gun with 45 rounds total 16 in the automatic loader in an unmanned turret. Crew of 3 in a capsule.
Hard kill APS and low profile smoke grenade launchers, RMS with a 7.62x51mm mg. Thermal and reduced radar cross section. Look familiar?
The South Korean take is newer dating as far as 2020. The technology is emerging it might not be as crazy as it seems.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The 130mm gun is fine. But the hull armor is likely shit.
The Leopard 2 chassis is utterly obsolete.
Obsolete suspension, obsolete engine, obsolete armor, obsolete transmission.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
1- The 130 mm gun serves no purpose

Future tanks will have two main types of ammunition:
  1. kinetic energy penetrator (APFSDS) against armored targets
  2. programmable high explosive/fragmentation (HE-FRAG) round used against soft targets including lightly armored vehicles or helicopters.
Re. 1:

Mass is energy. Penetrators need sufficient kinetic energy to move their mass/energy through the mass/energy of armor. Kinetic energy is depleted with range. While the energy remains high for many kilometers it quickly becomes insufficient for penetrating through heavy armor. 10% energy loss over distance is sufficient to stop the round. Higher kinetic energy means that the margin for energy is higher, which will complicate design of passive armor which already put vehicle mass at 70t which is near practical use threshold.

According to Rheinmetall Rh-130 L51 has 50% higher kinetic energy compared to Rh-120 L44.

The biggest change between 120mm and 130mm guns is in the construction of the chamber which allows for longer casing but that would involve the re-design of the barrel to handle increased pressure. The work necessary for development of new construction would be wasted on 120mm because increasing caliber adds performance margins that are very advantageous.

P1930431.jpg

Re. 2:

130mm round has ~0,53m2 cross-section and 0,816m circumference.
120mm has ~0,45m2 cross-section and 0,753m circumference.

This means 15% increase in cross-section area and volume for the round and 7,5% increase in surface area. Both parameters mean better explosive performance for programmable munitions and in particular better ability to shape explosions which is important for intelligent munitions with multiple use.

For APFSDS the main parameter is penetrator length and propellant charge. 120mm penetrators have recently reached technological limits so increasing caliber and overall round volume allows to improve performance which is better achieved with 130mm caliber compared to 120mm redesign. Tank armor and armor-piercing munitions are fields of extreme material science not very far from what is being done for hypersonics.

Finally Consider that the 130mm caliber is actually a 10mm reduction compared to the previously proposed 140mm gun which were under development in the US and France and were cancelled only because Soviet 4th gen MBTs which were a reaction to NATO 3rd gen MBTs never materialized. It is also only 5mm increase over 125mm guns used by Russian/Soviet and Chinese designs.


2- Their contribution to the battlefield is almost negligible compared to their cost

Bringing firepower to the battlefield is the role of artillery. Tanks bring momentum necessary for exploitation of breakthrough. Tanks are highly specialized weapons optimized for that mission. Everything else is incidental.

The main characteristic of the tank is not the firepower of a large caliber gun but mobility that enables an armored formation to maneuver on distances which are significant on a tactical, and sometimes even operational scale. Armor is a secondary characteristic so that the vehicle can withstand enemy fire allowing movement through defensive positions if necessary. The large gun is there only to make the maneuver faster. Think of the tank improvement over an armored APC towing a gun.

3- They don't solve the three fundamental problems that tanks are facing today

ATGMs are not magic. They have HEAT warheads which work according to specific physical process that can be countered by appropriate tank design.

HEAT produces a stream of molten metal that penetrates inside the tank damaging the crew and flammable materials. If the tank has good fire suppression solutions and design protects the crew an MBT can be penetrated by several HEAT warheads and continue fighting or withdraw from battlefield with minor damage. APFSDS use a different physical process that generates more damage inside the tank after penetration which is why tanks no longer use HEAT. ATGMs have no choice and are stuck with inferior armor-piercing technology because they need to be small and portable.

Then there's the question of ATGM hitting the tank which can carry a hard-kill active protection system and better active and passive camouflage than the ATGM team or their vehicle. ATGM has an IR signature that can be spotted by a 360-degree AI-enhanced observation system which deploys soft and hard-kill measures. Modern multi-spectral smoke screens effectively blind any optical guidance in ATGMs.

Don't forget that the ATGM has to destroy or immobilize the tank while the tank has to roll over enemy defense line. It doesn't have to destroy it because its target is the rear of enemy forces.

The clips of ATGMs hitting the tank are selected for propaganda purposes from multiple hits that did not penetrate the armor and even more numerous misses. When the tanks are destroyed is when they are immobile and not using proper tactics. In Ukraine or Syria that was commonplace because of low skill levels of tank crews. The tanks with better crews and commanding officers are the ones that are not on those propaganda clips.

Tanks are also the most survivable vehicle including against artillery fire. Everything else is less survivable and requires fewer resources per artillery round to destroy or suppress. Tanks are by all metrics the hardest vehicle to kill on the battlefield provided they are properly used.

4- Loitering munitions on tanks make no sense

They are the single biggest game-changer. You just have to think like a tank commander sitting inside a tank and not a World of Tanks player.

Military operates along levels of command: tank - platoon - company - battalion - brigade/regiment. All levels have assigned objectives and resources and have different information about the battlefield. It's not even the fog of war as just different understanding and ability to convey what's happening up/down the chain of command.

When a tank platoon has an objective to take a town but recon reports that there are enemy tanks hiding behind buildings the tank/platoon commander has options:
  1. follow the objective and risk engaging unidentified enemy defense
  2. request additional recon to identify prepared enemy defense and avoid it
  3. request additional fire support to suppress unidentified enemy defense
  4. request additional recon and fire support to identify and suppress enemy defenses
These options are ordered in the degree to which they absorb time and resources at higher levels and the likelihood in which the request will be denied.

Having an organic UAV or loitering munition resolves 2, 3 and 4. A tank platoon of four tanks will have between 4 and 8 UAVs. That's enough for most tactical problems and might mean the difference between losing tanks and not. Combat is not a continuous process like in computer games. 95+ % of time it's moving between locations and waiting and 5+% is actual combat. This is why reduction in stored ammo turned out to not be that much of a problem as better FCS compensated for it.

I expect that over time tanks will become a highly survivable manned command node while all the recon and primary engagement will fall to unmanned systems - both UAV and UGV - and artillery with MBTs using their guns for exceptional situations like engaging another MBT on the move.


5- A tank can not defend against UAVs effectively

Autocannon RCWS is an universal small-caliber weapon with greater firepower than a 7,62mm or 12,7mm that will be used in built-up areas where tanks face threats at elevation and against threats that doen't warrant expending main gun munition. 20-30mm cartridge allows for programmable munitions.

The notion of "anti-aircraft machine gun" is a historical naming convention. The main anti-aircraft weapon is an gun-launched missile or programmable HE-FRAG round while "AA" guns are primarily used against ground targets.

To sum up, I think these new tank concepts are tech development for the sake of tech development which is a problem that plagues the current European procurement. Extremely high-tech, extremely expensive but actually solve very few problems that the current tanks face.

Optionally Manned Tank follows the same design principles:

OMT.jpg
The design principles follow from those findings developed with the help of experienced tank crews.

OMT study.jpg
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
All of your statements only say how main battle tank can remain useful. they do Not address the question of do they remain sufficiently useful in a unique way, that justify the cost of continuing to develop it as a separate type.

each one of your arguments in favor of future MBT‘s future usefulness can find a direct or near direct analogue that was applied to advocate for the continued development of battleships between 1943-1955. But no meaningful further development of battleships was ultimately brought to fruition by any power because although these arguments taken individually appeared sound, they combined still do not justify the cost.

so I expect in the future, MBT may well become as you say, a well protected manned node for unmanned assets with a gun to be used for unique circumstances. but they reason why they assume this role is not because this role justifies the cost of develop wholly new vehicles to fill it, but because already existing MBT needs a role and can fill this one during their remaining service lives without too much development work.

when they wear out, manned node role will be take by vehicles that are cheaper, lighter, easier to conceal, thanks to not making sacrifices to accommodate a seldom used gun, not having to have quite the same level of cross country performance because it only has to each some point within the zone in which it can conceal and control it unmanned assets and not have to physically out flank an enemy by going through the dirt, and being protected mainly against munitions that can seek out targets over a large area, and not a long uranium or tungsten stick that almost always in low and hit its sides.
 
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