The PLAN LCAC Type 726 Yuyi Class

More pics of US LCUs:







More pics of the PLANs Type 074A LCU:







The PLAN really needs to design one of these to also fit in the well deck of their LPD (Type 071) and future LHD. They use these vessels now taking to the sea themselves. They are too tall (mast and bridge) and perhaps too much draft to fit into their LPD. But this is something they can fix.

The US, in using heavly life vertical lift (like the CH-53E and MV_22, LCACs, and these LCUs has an unbelievable flexible cadre of methods to strike at beaches from ove the horizon as much as from fifty miles off shore.

The US of course also has its own individual amphibious vehicles like the PLAN...but generally those are all launche from much close to shore...which puts those vessels in harm's way.

The specs of the LCU 1633 for the US Navy and that of the Type 074A are interesting. Clealry, they need to make the Type 074A LCU smaller to fit it into the well deck.

Spec: LCU vs Type 074A
Displ:: 375t - vs - 650t
Leng: 41m - vs - 58.4m
Width: 8.8m - vs - 19.4m
Draft: 2m - vs - 2.4m
Speed: 14knts - vs - 18 knts
Cap: 180t - vs - 200t
Men: 400 fully armed - vs - 200 fully armed
Crew: 11 - vs - 56

The US Navy LCU 1633 can carry 180 tons or 400 fully armed troops while the Type 074A can carry 200 tons or 250 fully armed troops. But the Type 074A is 275 tons heavier, 17 meters longer (that's about 56 ft. longer), and 10.5 m wider (which is the killer because that is about 35 ft wider...far too wide). At 8.8 M wide, the LCU just fits inside the well deck.

So the PLAN needs a new LCU type vessel that is designed to fit into the well deck, carry a lot more cargo, troops, vehicles than the LCAC, and though not as fast as the LCAC, is fast enough to be able to coordinate an OTH attack with them.

Jeff Head said:

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I am really surprised that the PLAN has not developed an LCU type vessels that can use those well decks.

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It is clearly well within their abilities so perhaps a LCU doesn't meet their requirements, they may also have chosen to devote limited resources for that capability to the LCAC but it hasn't worked out. In the meantime they have built more 072s, added another 071, acquired a few Zubrs and the ability to build more.

PanAsian said:

It is clearly well within their abilities so perhaps a LCU doesn't meet their requirements, they may also have chosen to devote limited resources for that capability to the LCAC but it hasn't worked out. In the meantime they have built more 072s, added another 071, acquired a few Zubrs and the ability to build more.

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Yes...they have done everything you say.

But that tells me there is all the more reason for a working LCAC and working LCU for their well deck vessels (the LPDs and the future LHDs).

This would give the PLAN a very real and credible Over the Horizon amphibious and air assault capability...much more flexible and much more difficult to defend against
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Ships like LCU would be useful sure, economical to build and operate even, but their speed disadvantage relegate them to 2nd wave landing or other low-intensity situation where one could afford the speed disadvantage because nobody would be shooting at them or the beachheads. But for the PLAN, such "easy day scenario" would only be found in dreamland, while in reality the scenarios calls for quick dash at heavily-defended beachheads while the air dominance is still being contested.

But of course, it's still a worthy project to pursuit, if they can squeeze the budget to get a small fleet of them.

MwRYum said:

Ships like LCCU would be useful sure, economical to build and operate even, but their speed disadvantage relegate them to 2nd wave landing or other low-intensity situation where one could afford the speed disadvantage because nobody would be shooting at them or the beachheads. But for the PLAN, such "easy day scenario" would only be found in dreamland, while in reality the scenarios calls for quick dash at heavily-defended beachheads while the air dominance is still being contested.

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Not necessarily at all.

They can be launched from 50 miles away and be there in 2 to 2/12 hours, and their landings can be coordinated to come in just after the LCACs land, and with air assault from helos hitting areas behind the beach either simultaneously, or just before that.

All after being softened up be naval gunfire and by air attack.

The US trains for these types of scenarios all the time. The flexibility and the number of craft that a single Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) as a part of an Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG) can land is pretty impressive.

LSD - up to four LCACs, or two LCACs and two LCUs.
LPD - up to two LCACs or one each LCAC and LCU.
LHD - up to three LCAC or two LCAC and two LCUs.

And if they go all out, they can combine two such groups at any time and double all of that.

Can you imagine a coordinated landing consisting of 10 LCACs and 10 LCUs landing together, or right after one another on a beach, while perhaps 1,200 marines come in simultaneously behind the beach head in Helos and V-22s supported by 20 or more F-35Bs? (assuming they do not use a carrier)...in an operation that large they would probably be using a CVN too so add another 40 attack aircraft supporting the assault.?

That's a whole lot of men and material hitting the beach at the same time, while air assault lands hundreds of Marines and their equipment behind the beach head.

...and they are meant to go into defended beaches if necessary...or use their mobility to flank the heavily defended areas.

The US Navy LCUs are not meant to be used just for "2nd wave landing or other low-intensity situation." The train with the LCACs to maximize the combat power the US can land on a beachhead when needed.

Anyhow, the PLAN will develop their own assault philosophy and policies...but the US NAvy works with its allies to practise this stuff regularly, particularly Japan ()who has a number of their own LCACs, and Australia who has their onw LCU type vessels.

But the PLAN with the Type o72s and Type 071s and their ultimate LHDs are already moving towards a similar capability.

Imagine a PLAN Amphibious group consisting if one LHD, two LPDs and three or four Type 072s LSTs. They could land a lot of men and equipment as well...and if they had the type of flexibility that helos, LCACs, LCUs and individual amphibious vehicles would give them, they could bring a similar overwhelming force to bear.

Jeff Head said:

The specs of the LCU 1633 for the US Navy and that of the Type 074A are interesting. Clealry, they need to make the Type 074A LCU smaller to fit it into the well deck.

Spec: LCU vs Type 074A
Displ:: 375t - vs - 650t
Leng: 41m - vs - 58.4m
Width: 8.8m - vs - 19.4m
Draft: 2m - vs - 2.4m
Speed: 14knts - vs - 18 knts
Cap: 180t - vs - 200t
Men: 400 fully armed - vs - 200 fully armed
Crew: 11 - vs - 56

The US Navy LCU 1633 can carry 180 tons or 400 fully armed troops while the Type 074A can carry 200 tons or 250 fully armed troops. But the Type 074A is 275 tons heavier, 17 meters longer (that's about 56 ft. longer), and 10.5 m wider (which is the killer because that is about 35 ft wider...far too wide). At 8.8 M wide, the LCU just fits inside the well deck.

So the PLAN needs a new LCU type vessel that is designed to fit into the well deck, carry a lot more cargo, troops, vehicles than the LCAC, and though not as fast as the LCAC, is fast enough to be able to coordinate an OTH attack with them.

Click to expand...

USN ships routinely have well decks that are 50ft/15.2m wide, which means an LCAC at 14.3m is barely able to fit in and an LCU at 8.8m is easily able to fit in. This also means that USN LCUs do not fully utilize the entire capacity of the mothership's well deck. A PLAN LCU sized to fit into a 071 well deck (which I believe IIRC is 120mx16m) would ideally be something like 58mx15m, which allow 2 LCUs fit in perfectly, using up almost all of the available room. This size would also allow a combination force like 1 LCU + 2 ACVs to be embarked.

Iron Man said:

USN ships routinely have well decks that are 50ft/15.2m wide, which means an LCAC at 14.3m is barely able to fit in and an LCU at 8.8m is easily able to fit in. This also means that USN LCUs do not fully utilize the entire capacity of the mothership's well deck. A PLAN LCU sized to fit into a 071 well deck (which I believe IIRC is 120mx16m) would ideally be something like 58mx15m, which allow 2 LCUs fit in perfectly, using up almost all of the available room. This size would also allow a combination force like 1 LCU + 2 ACVs to be embarked.

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My whole point is that the PLAN needs such a vessel to go along with their LCACs. But they also need to get their LCACs working and u=out in numbers.

The LCU can then carry multiple MBTs while the LCACs carry lighter armor. Both can carry a lot of troops.

This is the type of capability their LPDs and future LHDs are begging for.

OTH capacity for LCAC is a big advantage, and is tied to their speed.

As I said before, MBTs are nice, but hardly a must have for pretty much all the likely conflict scenarios the PLA might realistically be involved in.

In the SCS, even IFVs would be kind on any of the disputed islands. Even for Taiwan, the PLA's latest amphibious tanks would be adequate against Taiwan's antiquated M60s. Both would be able to kill the other with the first shot, which would put them on equal footing effectively.

Yes, even a 96 would dominate the field in Taiwan, but the PLA has better delivery opts for those, like its Zubrs.

Thus, in that regards, and with regards to the question of why the PLAN has thus far shown little interest in LCUs that can fit the well deck of 071s, well, again the questions of need and alternatives comes up.

As I said, it is my belief that the PLAN LPD programme was aimed primarily at the SCS originally, with Taiwan also a consideration.

LCACs would have been useful for a Taiwan scenario, but TBH, in a Taiwan scenario, even the 50nm+ range of LCACs wont be enough to ensure the LPDs stayed safe, so those 071s would have been effectively relegated to second wave bulk carry duties even with LCACs, so the lack of them doesn't really change much.

For the SCS, LCACs are hardly mission critical with the level of defences likely to be faced, and so the PLAN is showing them lukewarm interest.

Same questions comes up regarding well deck LCUs, just what possible theatre of operations would the PLAN need them for, which are not already covered by bigger, faster and all around better land based versions already in service?

The PLAN and PLA as a whole has no qualms about copying the good ideas and practices of others to better themselves, but they never blindly copy anything just because that's how someone else does things.

It would have been the easiest thing in the world for them to carbon copy the USMC, and it would have been quite hard to argue against that, but the fact that the PLAN is willing and able to critically evaluate the practices of others and independently decide what parts they want to emulate and what parts to discard is a good sign in my view.

What works for the USMC works because it suits their mission and needs. It would be frankly silly for the PLAN to coy them exactly given the very different missions and needs they have.

There is a difference between landings from OTH and landings on inaccessible beaches (inaccessible to standard hulled boats), which are both but different benefits of having ACVs. The Type 071 + ACV combination was almost certainly designed with a Taiwan invasion scenario in mind. This combo puts at risk most of the west side of Taiwan facing the mainland and significantly complicates Taiwanese military defenses more than would otherwise be the case without having to worry about where the 071s are going to attack. In fact the more 071s, Zubrs (and 081s??) there are during the opening phases of a Chinese assault on the island, the more difficult the defense preparation that Taiwanese military planners will have. They have to cover far more beaches with far more forces at each location.

As for LCUs, they give the 071 more flexibility in terms of payload. Two 58mx15m LCUs could carry a greater total load than 4 ACVs and of course are going to be much cheaper, but the tradeoff is loss of high speed assault capability and some loss of beach accessibility. A smaller 29mx7.5m LCU could fit 8 into a 071 well deck. PLAN clearly likes LCUs since they use them, and just because we don't hear about a 071-sized LCU doesn't mean there isn't one in the works. There is also a difference between a first wave attack where rapidly establishing a beachhead is key, and a second and subsequent wave sustainment where rapidly bulking up an established force is key. ACVs are eminently qualified for a rapid first wave attack, while LCUs with their greater load capacity are more qualified for rapid sustainment operations. Both could be employed by the 071 at different stages of an invasion during different trips between the mainland and the island. The only thing we need to do right now is to establish that LCUs have their place in the PLAN and potentially in the well decks of the 071 class (depending on the mission), and IMO they certainly do. After that it's all speculation whether the 071 class will eventually end up with them or not. My guess is they eventually will, though this boat would clearly not be on the top of anyone's fast track wish list for military toys.