The Military of Southern Song

In my opinion, it's about the politics. If you notice, there had been so many powerful states rising in the north in the Song dynasty. This had never happened before or after the Song dynasty. It was the weak song govn't that allowed the rise of all those northern states. This all originated from the founding emperor of the Song dynasty. As he was a commanding general in the late Zhou empire and later rose against his lord, he naturally distrusted his generals. He was seriously worried about one of his generals would follow his example and kicked him or his offsprings off the throne (in fact, his own brother did exactly that). Additionally, the mighty Tang dynasty before him fell because of powerful warlords. So he deviced a system that would weaken the power of those generals stationed near border. These generals had to do a 3-year rotation. This means the longest time a general could spend in one location was 3 years. Then he had to move to elsewhere. This system means no general can stay in one place long enough to establish his influence and his power base. Although this system worked as designed, one side effect of this is that the commanding generals usually had little clue of the capabilities of the generals under his command, no clue of the condition of his troops, no clue of the terrain he was in. Clueless generals =weak army near border = weak border. Without the strong Song army to hold down those minor states, like what previous dynasties did, these minor states got the opportunity of their life and began to grow stronger. This would be the source of all sorts of trouble that Song dynasty had to face throughout its existence.

If Song allowed its generals stationed along its northern border to develop its military like all the previous Chinese dynasties, like Han and Tang, Liao would not be in existence, Jin would not be in existence, Mongol would still be scattered tribes.

Someone might point out that China had always been troubled by its neighbors in the north since its first existence. Yes, that is true. The nomad tribes in the north had always annoyed China. However, they mostly stayed as annoyance, nothing more. The northern nomads were mostly like ants in your backyard. They bite you and make you itch and you hate them. But you never have to worry about them destroying your house and endanger your life. This is because you hire people to apply pesticides in your backyard all the time. It was the Song dynasty policy to have unstable and weak border military that gave them a chance to multiply into a plague that ultimately consumed China.

To continue what I left off above, the Song dynasty always distrust its military. No general in Song dynasty was allowed to develop his army and complete his mission. As soon as he was a little successful on the battlefield, he was either removed from his post (if he was lucky), or he ended up like Yue Fei. All this distrust came from the founding emperor of the song dynasty. All the following emperors faithfully followed their ancestor's advice and simply refused to give any chance to any capable generals. That's why they could not capitalize on their success. Once a battle was won, the general was immediately ordered back so that he could not gain too much influence and respect and admiration from the military and the populace. Just like Yue Fei, he was ordered to pull back his army when he was called back to the capital, giving up ALL the lands he had won during all the successful campaigns. Then the Jin army simply marched back and took the lands back without even fighting. That was why Song dynasty could never capitalize on their success. Tis was all because the emperors were worried about losing control.

So do you think that if South Song had the political determination, they could have pushed north against the Mongols?

solarz said:

So do you think that if South Song had the political determination, they could have pushed north against the Mongols?

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Yes, I think so. Like you said, the resources that the Momgol had was simply no match to the Chinese. And the Song army was winning 75% of the battles with the Mongolians. If the song dynasty gave them the political support, the song army would no doubt prevail.

Someone might think otherwise because the Mongolians were unstoppable in Europe as well. Well, Europe was divided and scattered and leaderless. It was and still is full of small independent nations, which, individually, was no match to the Mongolians who was by itself larger than most of the European states. And they stayed divided throughout the period. China was different. It was HUGE, financially, socially and militarily.

Just think of all the political and social support the PVA had during the Korean war, which was a huge reason that China could fight the Americans to a stalemate. The CCP leadership was determined to fight the Americans. They threw everything they've got into the fight. It's this support that ultimately won it for the Chinese. Imagine what the song army could do if they had similar support. Yet, what the Song generals got was their emperors doubting them, distrusting them, and wanting them all dead, all at the same they were trying to save the empire... How can anyone win with this political nightmare?

Of course, there is many tactical issues that prevent people from agreeing with me in that Song army could beat the Mongolians. The first if such issues would be the horses. Well, the northern nomads had owned the chivalry advantage over China for over a thousand years before Song dynasty. That never prevented the previous Chinese dynasties from effectively keeping the nomads outside of China. Additionally, the rebellion, mostly farmers, led by Zhu Yuanzhang (the founder of the Ming dynasty) was much poorly equipped than any of their Song army predecessors. Yet, they were able to push the Mongolians out of China and keep the entire state of Mongol under control for hundreds of years.

Solarz I think you are underestimating the logistic difficulties of mounting a major strike up North.

siegecrossbow said:

Solarz I think you are underestimating the logistic difficulties of mounting a major strike up North.

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Zhu Yuanzhang did it, with mostly farmers.

vesicles said:

Zhu Yuanzhang did it, with mostly farmers.

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Yes... The only example of a successful campaign from South to North in Chinese history.

vesicles said:

Zhu Yuanzhang did it, with mostly farmers.

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Yes... The only example of a successful campaign from South to North in Chinese history. Hardly the most compelling example don't you think?

siegecrossbow said:

Yes... The only example of a successful campaign from South to North in Chinese history. Hardly the most compelling example don't you think?

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But it shows it's doable. If it is doable, it can be done again. Especially, this was done merely 90 years after the Song dynasty, by the same people who would depend the Song empire against the same people who would attack Song.

The only south to north advance? How about Han army marching north to kick out the Huns? How about Tang army destroying the "tujue"? How about Qin army attacking the Huns (Meng Tian, et al.)? Oh, what about how Xiang Yu and his Chu army (originated south of long river) advanced north and destroyed Qin dynasty in the north?