The Korean war

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

raider1001 said:

Let me put it this way, North Korea wants nuke to protect itself from what? Just plain protection or as protect itself from others that tries to interfere in an invasion? The problem is not whether it is okay for North Korea to have nukes for protection, the problem is that it still did not prove that nukes will only be used for protection. US did considered using nukes against China, either against the nuclear facilities or to nuke the mass Chinese forces that were overrunning Korea or Taiwan. But none of the times the nukes were considered in invading China (unless US plan to nuke Chinese forces landing on Taiwan counts).

You bring up MacArthur, did you even bother to check the fact that the nuclear weapon authorization belongs to Truman and Truman only? And that MacArthur was sacked for making too much stupid comments like this? And the fact that Chinese leadership had extremely hard time understanding that MacArthuer and Truman does not think alike?

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You are misinformed. MacArthur reached the Yalu River before China wasn't even involved in the Korean War. There he wanted to use nukes to go all the way to Peking. Which was one of the reasons why China got involved the Korean War. Do you think the Chinese even cared about authorization or the politics in the US? If China has to consider that then why don't you drop your argument that China was going to abuse nukes if they ever got their hands on it because they got them and didn't do anything you claim China would've done if he Soviets gave it to them. Sorry to tell you during the Vietnam War there were those in the Pentagon who wanted to hatch a plan with the Soviets to nuke China and split China like East and West Germany and North and South Korea. So don't tell me no one ever had thoughts of invasion of China without provocation and the use of first strike nuclear weapons.

Again if the North Korean situation parallels China, did China ever attack anyone because they wanted food from them? Or how about wanting attention which is another reason they say is behind this incident? Remember China didn't care much about getting the West's attentions because they closed their door to outside influence. More contradicting propaganda. Or let's go by Bill Richardson theory that all these antics from North Korea is actually a cry for help to the West to save them from the Chinese. Did China ever attack the West because it wanted to be saved from the Soviets?

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

raider1001 said:

Well, the reason why Khrushchev doesn't want to give the bomb was because Mao said that he will use it to nuke US invaders when he lands on Taiwan. Khrushchev was shocked at Mao's recklessness and decided that China was a liability, while Mao believe Khrushchev's denial for bomb means Soviet Union after Stalin lost its revolutionary edge. I believe this is where the ideological split between China and Soviet Union started.

I don't know where did you get your history lesson, but Soviet pull out did made the Chinese economy collapse, and it is one of the important trigger for the famine. My ideas that if the history repeats itself, China pull out of North Korea, millions will starve to death, followed by a period of political anarchy, then the North Korea has no choice but to initiate reforms like China. I mean, it's pointless to keep North Korean on a limb, it might as well let them feel some pain so that they can come to some senses.

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You have a funny idea of history. First of all, just because the Russians didn't want to give China nuclear technology, doesn't mean they automatically don't value China as an ally.

If you had an actual grasp of history, you'd realize that the Sino-Soviet fallout was about much more than nukes. The split was not ideological but very much political: power and territory.

China's Reform also didn't initiate as a result of the Famine, or of Soviet pullout. If you'll remember, 10 years of Cultural Revolution followed the Famine. It wasn't until the death of Mao and the ascension of Deng that reforms were started.

You're also pretty naive in thinking that China *wants* NK to be strong. Why the hell would China want that? NK is doing an excellent job in keeping the US and its proxies in the region off-balance, all the while being poor enough to be completely reliant on China's support.

It always amuses me to read about articles urging China to restrain NK. What has NK done that has harmed China so far? On the contrary, the more provocative NK is, the more the US, Japan, and SK are reminded of how they can't do jack squat to Kim because China is sitting behind him.

You know, I wonder if this incident is at all related to the Diaoyutai Incident. After all, this latest incident pulls public attention way from the China-Japan conflict and allows the two governments to start mending ties at a low profile.

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

AssassinsMace said:

You are misinformed. MacArthur reached the Yalu River before China wasn't even involved in the Korean War. There he wanted to use nukes to go all the way to Peking. Which was one of the reasons why China got involved the Korean War. Do you think the Chinese even cared about authorization or the politics in the US? If China has to consider that then why don't you drop your argument that China was going to abuse nukes if they ever got their hands on it because they got them and didn't do anything you claim China would've done if he Soviets gave it to them. Sorry to tell you during the Vietnam War there were those in the Pentagon who wanted to hatch a plan with the Soviets to nuke China and split China like East and West Germany and North and South Korea. So don't tell me no one ever had thoughts of invasion of China without provocation and the use of first strike nuclear weapons.

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Please read some history books...Truman never give MacAuthur the power to use the bomb, Truman never wanted to invade China with nuke. The only evidence that is used to show US is actually thinking using the bomb in China was when a journalist asked Truman what military option he would use when China got involved in the Korean War, and his answer was "everything we got." I can't believe a 50 year old out of context quote still got twisted around in Chinese media. Furthermore, why is nobody bother to mention the other side of the story, in which that Chinese leadership just really don't understand American decision making?

AssassinsMace said:

Again if the North Korean situation parallels China, did China ever attack anyone because they wanted food from them? Or how about wanting attention which is another reason they say is behind this incident? Remember China didn't care much about getting the West's attentions because they closed their door to outside influence. More contradicting propaganda. Or let's go by Bill Richardson theory that all these antics from North Korea is actually a cry for help to the West to save them from the Chinese. Did China ever attack the West because it wanted to be saved from the Soviets?

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But Mao did want Taiwan, and Mao pined his entire battle plan on Soviet naval and air support. The reason why he started the second Taiwan strait crisis while funding Viet Minh against the French was to make sure Soviet and US stay as enemies, therefore the Soviet would more likely to listen to his plan in take over of Taiwan. The lesson for China today is simple, don't fall into the same trap.

solarz said:

You have a funny idea of history. First of all, just because the Russians didn't want to give China nuclear technology, doesn't mean they automatically don't value China as an ally.

If you had an actual grasp of history, you'd realize that the Sino-Soviet fallout was about much more than nukes. The split was not ideological but very much political: power and territory.

China's Reform also didn't initiate as a result of the Famine, or of Soviet pullout. If you'll remember, 10 years of Cultural Revolution followed the Famine. It wasn't until the death of Mao and the ascension of Deng that reforms were started.

You're also pretty naive in thinking that China *wants* NK to be strong. Why the hell would China want that? NK is doing an excellent job in keeping the US and its proxies in the region off-balance, all the while being poor enough to be completely reliant on China's support.

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I got a reading list for you:

1) Chen, Jian (1996), China's Road to the Korean War: the Making of the Sino-American Confrontation, New York, NY: Columbia University Press, ISBN 9780231100250
2) Zhang, Shu Guang (1992), Deterrence and Strategic Culture: Chinese-American Confrontations, 1949-1958, Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, ISBN 0801427517
3) Goncharov, Sergeĭ Nikolaevich; Lewis, John Wilson; Xue, Litai (1993), Uncertain Partners: Stalin, Mao, and the Korean War, Palo Alto, CA: Stanford University Press, ISBN 9780804721158

Those three fundamental studies in Sino-Soviet-American relations concluded it it because the Soviets refuse to back China up with nuclear shields when China wants to roll back imperialism in Asia is the start of Sino-Soviet split. You can say it is complicated all you want, but this the the current scholar opinions. And if by "valuable ally" you mean forcing China to sell out entire Manchuria, Outter Mongolia and Xinjiang, then drag China into a war that is started by Soviets and North Koreans, and finally holding out promises on providing support to take over Taiwan, then yeah, valuable ally indeed.

And stop putting word in my mouth, I never said China want NK to be strong, merely that China is stupid enough to allow NK to feed on it to survive. North Korea is a cancer to China, and it shocked me that after tons of backstabbing by North Korea, China still refuse to take tough measures to make NK leadership to fall in line. Let North Korea starve for all I care, and maybe after a million dead some North Koreans will see reasons and rise like Deng Xiaoping. My grandfather starved for them and what the hell have they done in return?

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

Please read some history books...Truman never given MacAuthur the power to use the bomb, Truman never wanted to invade China with nuke. The only evidence that is used to show US is actually thinking using the bomb in China was when a journalist asked Truman what military option he would use when China got involved in the Korean War, and his answer was "everything we got." I can't believe a 50 year old out of context quote still got twisted around in Chinese media. Furthermore, why is nobody bother to mention the other side of the story, in which that Chinese leadership just really don't understand American decision making?

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You need to read some history books and check your own logic. It doesn't matter if Truman didn't authorize the use of the bomb. MacArthur was lobbying for it over Truman's head which led to his dismissal. Was China suppose to care about if Truman wanted to use or not. The threat was made. What about how Americans are angry over a Chinese military officer saying Chinese nukes can reach Los Angeles. Everyone is saying that's official endorsed by the government. It was only a general saying saying Chinese missiles can reach LA. Yet everyone in the US interprets it as an official threat from the government.

And again to which you see the failure of your own logic is China eventually got the bomb and did China wildly use it like you claim why the Soviets didn't give the Chinese the bomb? And if the Soviets were so scared China might go wild because they were shelling Quemoy and Matsu to antagonize the US, what were the Soviets doing in Eastern Europe at that time. Ask the Czechs of how the Soviets were so respectful.

Your arguments that North Korea parallels China doesn't carry weight.

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

AssassinsMace said:

And again to which you see the failure of your own logic is China eventually got the bomb and did China wildly use it like you claim why the Soviets didn't give the Chinese the bomb? And if the Soviets were so scared China might go wild because they were shelling Quemoy and Matsu to antagonize the US, what were the Soviets doing in Eastern Europe at that time. Ask the Czechs of how the Soviets were so respectful.

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Gee, which part of Chinese invasion plan required Soviet air and naval support don't you understand? And I never argue on logic, I only repeat established scholar opinions. Logic are just excuse for lazy people who refused to be informed. After all, it is "logical" that China used human wave attack during the Korean War...

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

raider1001 said:

Gee, which part of Chinese invasion plan required Soviet air and naval support don't you understand? And I never argue on logic, I only repeat established scholar opinions. Logic are just excuse for lazy people who refused to be informed. After all, it is "logical" that China used human wave attack during the Korean War...

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Don't give a damn what scholars say. Since when have scholars all been right. I've heard scholars say the US got involved in the Korean War because China invaded the South. Just because a scholar said it, it has to be true? I can think for myself. And they say Chinese are robots? And it was a Nobel Prize winner who thought up the model that caused this recession. He must be right. Let the world keep following that model because he's a Nobel Prize winner.

In my humble opinion... The main reason for China to enter into the Korea War was really simple... It is just because they doesn't want US and their allies right at her doorsteps. And also that area is where China's heavy industries are.

At that time, buffer state is very important, it gave the Chinese time in case of war and make it difficult for her potential enemy to reach them. And it would be excellent to be very friendly and was a steadfast allies of the buffer state, no matter how much of a lunatic the ruler might be.

In that case, it would give opponents a harder time when they tried to enter by that area.

Call me naive and simplistic, but that is the case and a strategy that had been practiced for centuries. Have a buffer state, be extra nice to the buffer state, help them up and ensure that they survive and was strong enough, but not too strong as to challenge yourself, and yet be a pain in the butt for all your 'unfriendly' neighbours and foreign powers.

Re: Two Korea's... a 21st Century Problem

raider1001 said:

Gee, which part of Chinese invasion plan required Soviet air and naval support don't you understand? And I never argue on logic, I only repeat established scholar opinions. Logic are just excuse for lazy people who refused to be informed. After all, it is "logical" that China used human wave attack during the Korean War...

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LOL, if you want to claim "scholar opinions", you might want to present some references.

back in early 90's ,russia releases korean war archieve ,and china year later.
document actually show that stalin dupe mao into korean war.
Kim first approached the soviet for southern invasion in 1947 but was rejected.it was not until in 1950 stalin finally approved,plan for the invasion was draw up in soviet chieft of staff.the decision to invade was kept secret from China, in fact,to prevent any leak, most of war material has to be shipped.
according to historian,stalin emerged as the real winner,while korean ,both north and south was devasted by the conflict.it created animosity between china and US.

That would be the argument in the book Uncertain Partners. However the book China's Road to the Korean War gave out the other side of the story, in which Mao tried extremely hard to impress Stalin in order receive protections against Americans, and that involved militarily aiding the North Korean with the knowledge that Kim will use it to attack South Korea. The only argument that resolves China of all responsibilities in starting Korean War is the fact that Mao gave the Soviet completely control of Manchuria and its railway networks as part of the Sino-Soviet Friendship Treaty, and as described in detail in Uncertain Partners, Mao also allowed Soviets control of Xinjiang while dropping the demand for Outter Mongolia. Those facts pretty much demolish the official Chinese view of achieving equal partnership with Soviet Union. The book Uncertain Partners's final conclusion is that Stalin engineered an confrontation between China and America in Korea to strengthen its position in Asia, while Mao tried to engineer a confrontation between Soviet Union and America at South East Asia to strengthen China. In the end Stalin outsmarted Mao and Mao charged head on into a trap.