The Kashmir conflict 2025.

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
If everything is secret then there is no point discussing anything, cause we have no basis of knowing.

China most certainly has public numbers for defense spending. Yes, it maybe understated but that's why have estimates from SIPRI which estimates China's military budget at 314 billion, less than 1.5% of GDP.

IISS likely uses number of active brigades and satellite imagery to count the numbers in service. It's pretty much the best source of military numbers we have.

China may have made a lot of strides in terms military tech. But they are severely behind in numbers compared to US on many many categories such as fighter jets, destroyer count, submarine count, carrier count, extremely low numbers of helicopters in service. There is a lot of gaps.

Chatgpt said As of 2023, the U.S. Army operates a total of 1,106 Patriot launchers, with 480 actively in service. These systems are deployed across various active-duty and National Guard units, both domestically and internationally, including locations in South Korea and Japan.

That is huge
 

ENTED64

New Member
Registered Member
Was the HQ-9 deployed in the Kashmir region? How did those SCALP missiles get through?
Interception is complicated and not a sure thing. Just see Ukraine, there are systems that can in theory intercept incoming munitions and indeed they do intercept them but only some of the time. It's usually not 100%, some munitions will get through depending on specifics.

well that's just wonderful. What is China going to do then when the US starts lobbing JASSMs left and right?
Munitions need delivery platforms such as aircraft, ships, land based launchers, etc. Those platforms also need their own support and logistics pipelines. If you can threaten or destroy those platforms and/or their support chain that greatly disrupts the amount of incoming munitions. Further there are a lot of targets on mainland China. A few JASSMs getting through is not going to end the war.

Given the hardening of Chinese bases and the sheer number of industrial/logistical targets on mainland China, a handful of guided weapons making it through the layered air defense network is a drop in the bucket. China is well aware they can't stop literally every incoming munition and there will at some point be some losses. That's expected and planned for.

If everything is secret then there is no point discussing anything, cause we have no basis of knowing.
Unfortunately for the PLA when it comes to exact numbers sometimes that really is the case and we can't know more than vague rumors. There are examples of PLA just springing surprises on us like J-15T/J-15D in service in significant numbers before we even knew they were ready. Truth is you just have to give a significant margin of uncertainty. Satellite images help but they're not a perfect solution.
 

Matcher6130

New Member
Registered Member
New Article by Bloomberg

The success of Chinese jets used against India in the recent conflict with Pakistan is raising alarm in Asia about their air combat capabilities


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It's Bloomberg, but figured I'd check the claims anyways.
  • Myanmar JF-17 grounding: Single source from India
  • Bangladesh Complains: Source is Times of India
  • Pakistan Navy's F-22P's (Type 053 variant): Source is an Indian think-tank.
I also looked into the two writers. Both appear to be fairly young (maybe mid 20s), with one from Taipei and the other from Singapore. Both appear to be in their mid-20s, so probably fresh college grads trying to make a name for themselves in the workforce.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
If everything is secret then there is no point discussing anything, cause we have no basis of knowing.
That's the point lol, we barely speculate about numbers for stuff like aircrafts or tanks because it's impossible to know.
IISS likely uses number of active brigades and satellite imagery to count the numbers in service. It's pretty much the best source of military numbers we have.
We don't even have an official source of information on how many air defense brigades there are in the PLA again none of it is public information. Satellite images on the other hand is just a very lousy way of counting, how would you know if the unit you saw here isn't a unit you saw somewhere else 3 days ago? Plus, air defense batteries especially mobile ones are usually kept under tarps and what not to conceal their location which I think would be pretty obvious here especially after the recent Indo-Pakistani conflict but apparently not.
China may have made a lot of strides in terms military tech. But they are severely behind in numbers compared to US on many many categories such as fighter jets, destroyer count, submarine count, carrier count, extremely low numbers of helicopters in service. There is a lot of gaps.
China has the largest underwater fleet... and if you count legacy destroyers like the 051 etc(US still has like 20 something flight I Burkes in service) and confirmed destroyers under construction/sea trail/fitting out(These destroyers at the latest should be commissioned by 2028) for PLAN then the number would be very close. As for helicopter/fighter no credible information exists, hell we don't even know what aircraft types are still in production and what not. We don't even know how many J-20s/J-16s PLAAF has only a very rough estimate and some occasional rumors on production runs.
 

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
how many times do we need to tell you, please stop reading these nonsense unreliable reports. these clowns really have no idea.

China have way way more than 150 HQ-9B launchers and they also fielded C variant long back..

and you completely forgot other Chinese SAM systems.

HQ-22 - 4 tube
HQ-26 - 8 tube
HQ-19 (~ THAAD equivalent) - 6 tube
HQ-29 (~S-500/PL-19 Nudol) - 2 tube
PC-19/DN-3

The most comprehensive report on PLA SAM systems. please watch this.

as per his calculation..

Russia - 710 launchers
China - 670 launchers
USA - 480 Launchers


thanks @sequ
Your number for 670 is exactly identical to IISS. Most likely he got it from there as well.

It includes
legacy HQ-9 - 150
S-300 - 216
S-400 - 32
+
The numbers I mentioned before about hq-9B and hq-22.

In total it's 678 launchers.

Again, s-300 is too old, and because it's russian, likely cannot be integrated with New Chinese aerial assets to create a complete AD network. Same thing goes for s-400. HQ-9 legacy systems are probably as good as s-300 in terms of capabilities.

So, if we count only modern systems then China only has 150 hq9b and 130 hq-22.

As for hq-19, 26, 29 we have no numbers for those on IISS. Most likely they are in service in limited numbers or LRIP.
 

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
I don't know how many times we have to say here but IISS is a bad source of information on PLA. HQ-19 has been in service for so long they literally put it up for display at the Zhuhai airshow last year lmao
I am not doubting that hq-19 is in service. But they were testing it not so few years ago. So maybe they are still limited in numbers.

Hq-19 was also not shown in 2019 parade.

Even many stuff shown in the parade were very new and not even in full service properly. Things like the new uniform, new service rifle, they showed them off before even induction into active service. Then they inducted type-21 uniform into service after a lot more testing.

Finally, China shows off many many systems in zhuhai air show that are not even in service in the PLA but they want to promote it get export customers. Most of the time, the systems shown in zhuhai air show are more advanced than whatever pla has.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Your number for 670 is exactly identical to IISS. Most likely he got it from there as well.
yes.. if you read all western reports they do specifically mentioned. this is the minimum we have taken. the Minimum numbers.

China never disclose the actual number of SAM launchers.. same with nuke submarine , aircrafts and other military equipment also number of nukes..

As for hq-19, 26, 29 we have no numbers for those on IISS. Most likely they are in service in limited numbers or LRIP.
one example, HQ-19 has been in service for years but China officially disclose in last year Zhuhai air show.. :p :p same with other SAM system.. like latest HQ-29 we have seen TEL but as per the satellite imagery they have been testing this system since 2020.

So, if we count only modern systems then China only has 150 hq9b and 130 hq-22.
numbers are not accurate..

C variant is in service for quite some time..
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Russia has more than 50 S-400 Batteries.

the only thing i agree with you.. yes China need more numbers but if we see latest trend, we all know that defense related procurement accelerate across the board.
 
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neutralobserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Quoting another member: "I know this will be deleted by the other side, regardless it describes the unfortunate death of a S-400 operator after being shot by a 'bullet'. Make of it what you may."


Also note that, Pakistani AVM mentioned in the press conference that they targeted the radar of S400 ( specifically 96L6 Cheese Board ).

Take it with a grain of salt since we have only circumstantial evidence and confirmation would be pretty much impossible (Indians would never disclose it just like they are still dodging the question of aircraft loss).
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Quoting another member: "I know this will be deleted by the other side, regardless it describes the unfortunate death of a S-400 operator after being shot by a 'bullet'. Make of it what you may."


Also note that, Pakistani AVM mentioned in the press conference that they targeted the radar of S400 ( specifically 96L6 Cheese Board ).

Take it with a grain of salt since we have only circumstantial evidence and confirmation would be pretty much impossible (Indians would never disclose it just like they are still dodging the question of aircraft loss).

They used a S-400 operator as cannon fodder on the frontlines???
 
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