The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

the thing with Li Shimin is that now ppl also believe that some of his record were made up. the rumour now is that his father Li Yuan was a lot more competent than history says, and Li Shimin took a lot of credit for Li Yuan's decisions.

and the stuff with Li Yuanba is fake, he didnt even exist.

pla101prc said:

the thing with Li Shimin is that now ppl also believe that some of his record were made up. the rumour now is that his father Li Yuan was a lot more competent than history says, and Li Shimin took a lot of credit for Li Yuan's decisions.

and the stuff with Li Yuanba is fake, he didnt even exist.

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Who says he didn't exist? He's the younger brother of Li Shimin! Hold on, that was folklore and people made that up. Hehehe, I hope you don't take it seriously. It's for fun... It's holiday time...

vesicles said:

And talking about gaps, I think Zhu Yuanzhang had the biggest gap between his troops and his enemy. We all know how mighty the Mongolians were at the time. In the Yuan dynasty, the Mongolians were so worried about Chinese rebellion, they only allowed 1 kitchen knife per 10 families (I think there's also something on the amount of total metal allowed in each family, even including nails and plows and stuff). And no more than 3 people were ever allowed to be seen together. And under this kind of strenuous situation, Zhu was able to start a successful rebellion and kick out the Mongolians. And by the way, Mongolians were definitely not someone you could push around easily.

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Well, you're forgetting the fact that the Han outnumbered the Mongols something like 100 to 1. In pre-gunpowder warfare, numbers counted for a lot more than today. Plus, the Mongols were at a decline during that time. While some elite troops remained, a lot of their vaunted discipline was lost during 80 years of corruption and leisure. Once Zhu Yuanzhang was able to organize and mobilize the Han as a whole, the Mongols really didn't stand a chance.

Also, don't forget that Zhu didn't kick out the Mongols by himself. There were a lot other powerful rebel leaders, such as Cheng Youliang. In fact, Zhu's most challenging battles weren't against the Yuan, but against Cheng.

at the time not only was the mongol regime corrupt to the bone, it spent all of its energy fighting Liu Futong and Han Liner in the north, didnt really focus in the south. what was impressive about Zhu Yuanzhang is that he started with like 13 ppl and ended up with an empire

vesicles said:

ff Let me try to give you guys the great warriors of the Tang dynasty:
#1 Li Yuanba, #2 Yuwen Chengdu, #3 Pei Yuanqing, #4 Xiong Kuohai, #5 Wu Yuzhao, #6 ?, #7 Luo cheng, #8 Yang Lin, #9 Ding Yanping, #10 Yang Fang ?, #11 ?, #12 Qin Yong, #13 Qin Qiong and Yuchi Gong. Help me fill out the ?s

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Actually Yuwen Chengdu is not from Tang Dynasty but from a dynasty before Tang - Sui Dynasty. Li YuanBa is a fictional figure and not real person.

rhino123 said:

Actually Yuwen Chengdu is not from Tang Dynasty but from a dynasty before Tang - Sui Dynasty. Li YuanBa is a fictional figure and not real person.

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Yep, the end of Sui and beginning of Tang. And these people did battle each other, with the exception that most of the people in the Tang camp survived into the Tang dynasty and the people in the Sui camp gone... Actually, most of these people, even those in the Tang camp did not survive to see the establishment of Tang dynasty. And you can't mention people like Qin Qiong without mentioning Yuwen Chengdu... It's like mentioning the Peter Pan without mentioning Captain Hook although the arch enemy of Yuwen Chengdu was actually Li Yuanba (Yeah Yeah Yeah, I know, he didn't exist...).

Yeah, I know Li Yuanba is fictional, but he is one of the most famous character in the novel and legend.

vesicles said:

Yeah, I know Li Yuanba is fictional, but he is one of the most famous character in the novel and legend.

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Hmmmm: Start mixing fact with fiction and you end up with something like King Arthur and Camelot, with the Knights of the Round Table. situation.

vesicles said:

Yep, the end of Sui and beginning of Tang. And these people did battle each other, with the exception that most of the people in the Tang camp survived into the Tang dynasty and the people in the Sui camp gone... Actually, most of these people, even those in the Tang camp did not survive to see the establishment of Tang dynasty.

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And then you have Cheng Yaojing, who survived what, 3 Tang emperors, and well into the reign of the empress Wu Zetian. He's always been my favorite guy in the Sui-Tang Chronicles.

Edit:

Okay, apparently that part was fiction. Oh well.

And since we are going into fiction, why don't we look at the Feng Sheng Ban characters - Jiang Zi Ya? He is a good strategist, help to defeat the Shang Dynasty and formed the Zhou Dynasty.

rhino123 said:

And since we are going into fiction, why don't we look at the Feng Sheng Ban characters - Jiang Zi Ya? He is a good strategist, help to defeat the Shang Dynasty and formed the Zhou Dynasty.

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Is Jiang entirely fictional or rooted in a historical character? I remember seeing a chinese history show where the narrator talked about how Zhou defeated Shang in only 3 months. That's faster than the Americans taking over Iraq.