The Fall of Qing Dynasty

I think the best way to describe the Qing would be: could have been better but could have been worse as well

Their failure to modernise is well known but imagine if the Ming dynasty had retained its borders up til the 21st century.

China would be in the same position as India today, surrounded by enemies with little strategic depth, natural resources or control over its rivers. The best thing the Qing did was turning Tibet, Xinjiang, Manchuria and Inner Mongolia into "China". In a 100 years we'll think of these places as we think of Guangdong today

gadgetcool5 said:

The greatest contribution of the Qing was to redefine China from being a Han only nation to a multinational country that included many minorities like Manchus, Mongols, Uyghurs, Tibetans, etc.

Overall the Song Dynasty is my favorite because its technological and commercial success was the greatest for China during the Imperial era. No dynasty would ever attain that level of relative advancement over the West again.

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Qing was not a multinational country. It was a multi-ethnic empire.

Historians have pointed out Ming actually defined how modern Han and Han-ized people look at what China is to such a degree that modern Chinese people thinks social and ethnic make up of China during previous dynasties must also have been similar to that concept of China which was formed during the Ming dynasty. That is not so. Socially and ethnically China had been quite different under Song, Tang, and Han dynasties, to say nothing of Yuan, much more ethnically diverse, and in that sense similar to Qing, and less Confucian in outlook than either Ming or Qing.

Some Sinologist have pointed out Concepts underlying modern capitalism, such a risk and reward sharing through investment partnerships, public subscription investment, credit snd banking, insurance, fiat money, had all been well developed by Song Dynasty and played a much larger role in Song economy than commonly realized, or would play roles in later Chinese society before 1900s. They also pointed out maritime trade had much higher social status under Tang and Song than it would later during Ming and Qing. They suggested the social and economic development of China under Song was in fact progressing rapidly towards something more similar to the sort of commercial capitalism that would later develop in Western Europe in the 1600s. If it were not for the mongol conquest, China might have developed into the world’s first capitalistic commercial maritime empire a good 2 centuries or more before England and Holland. They also pointed out due to its failure to survive the Mongol conquest, the path China was on under Song was repudiated by Confucian scholars under Ming. This view formed under Ming actually defined how China looked at itself down to almost the present day.

Richard Santos said:

Historians have pointed out Ming actually defined how modern Han and Han-ized people look at what China is to such a degree that modern Chinese people thinks social and ethnic make up of China during previous dynasties must also have been similar to that concept of China which was formed during the Ming dynasty. That is not so. Socially and ethnically China had been quite different under Song, Tang, and Han dynasties, to say nothing of Yuan, much more ethnically diverse, and in that sense similar to Qing, and less Confucian in outlook than either Ming or Qing.

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The Ming Dynasty under emperor YongLe was one of the most powerful periods in Chinese history. He is a political and military genius, like Taizhong. Unfortunately, after YongLe's era, the Ming dynasty began to weaken and fail

It is somewhat anachronistic to speak of nations before the modern era. Qing was a northern hybrid Huaxia state. Like many prior northern hybrid states, it had clear political divisions based on race (ethnicity).

The lands of the conquered Ming were ruled over by the civil bureaucracy, which in the early days of the dynasty was roughly half bannermen, half Han. The lands of the Manchu and Mongols, and later Tibet and Xinjiang were off limits to the Han, and were ruled exclusively by the bannermen.

FangYuan said:

The Ming Dynasty under emperor YongLe was one of the most powerful periods in Chinese history. He is a political and military genius, like Taizhong. Unfortunately, after YongLe's era, the Ming dynasty began to weaken and fail

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There are many examples in history where the fundamental domestic trends which will eventually lead to a state’s down fall were in fact set in motion well before the state actually reach the outward zenith of its power, wealth and success.
Some sinologists have pointed out the Ming dynasty, right from the beginning, structurally relied on a heavy top down bureaucracy to a much higher degree than previous Chinese dynasties. The cost of this bureaucracy made Ming peasantry the most heavily taxed of any major chinese dynasty. Ming’s inability to rein in its bureaucracy without losing control let to its decline down fall.
Also, the primacy of Confucian scholarly bureaucracy over the military, the merchant and the aristocratic classes under Ming is attributed to reaction to the fact that the influence of merchant classes, aristocracy and military had been seen, by those very scholars, as causes of fall of previous chinese dynasties.

Richard Santos said:

Historians have pointed out Ming actually defined how modern Han and Han-ized people look at what China is to such a degree that modern Chinese people thinks social and ethnic make up of China during previous dynasties must also have been similar to that concept of China which was formed during the Ming dynasty. That is not so. Socially and ethnically China had been quite different under Song, Tang, and Han dynasties, to say nothing of Yuan, much more ethnically diverse, and in that sense similar to Qing, and less Confucian in outlook than either Ming or Qing.

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I think you wanted to say that "China was always a multi-ethnic state". If so I fully agree.

The historians' take of Ming being specific in defining Han Chinese view is surely wrong IMO. Because Han as an identity wasn't the invention of Ming to begin with. It was Yuan that defined the group of people "Han" which includes anybody north of Song dynasty except tribes who joined Genghis Khan early on and being named Mongol. This "Han" includes Jurchen, Kihtan, Tangut, even Mongol and Turkic tribes that did not join Genghis Khan's conquest in early stage. Essentially this identity was a mix of ethnic and political grouping. It is similar to later Qing's banner system where a banner man can be a Han or Mongol, eventually these banner men all become Manchu in ROC regardless their ethnic origin.

It also worth to note that population's view of their country or state is about the dynasty (Yuan, Ming, Qing), or geography (Zhong Yuan/ central plain), or their ethnic belonging (Mongol, Han, Manchu). The combination of the three would be equal to China, but using this single term would be over simplification for the people back then.

@taxiya you contradict yourself. As you said, in Yuan, the Han were the people who belonged to the Jurchen Jin state the Mongols had conquered. People south of that, belonging to the Song state, were called Nanren (southerners). This is obviously very different from the modern definition of Han, since it didn't consider as Han anyone south of the Jin state and furthermore, included quite a few people in the north who would later not be considered Han.

You are also wrong about the origin of the usage of the word Han to denote a group of people (in an ethnic sense). It dates quite a bit earlier than Yuan. The first attested records are from Northern Wei. The Xianbei people who came to rule northern China were the first to use the word Han to describe their newly conquered agriculturalist subjects.

It was during the Ming that Han came to have a meaning approaching its modern definition. The Ming were the first Huaxia state to consider all farmers in their state, both in the north and the south, to be Han. This led to no small dissatisfaction among southerners and northerners, who were both proud of their separate identities and considered the other inferior.

Richard Santos said:

Some Sinologist have pointed out Concepts underlying modern capitalism, such a risk and reward sharing through investment partnerships, public subscription investment, credit snd banking, insurance, fiat money, had all been well developed by Song Dynasty and played a much larger role in Song economy than commonly realized, or would play roles in later Chinese society before 1900s. They also pointed out maritime trade had much higher social status under Tang and Song than it would later during Ming and Qing. They suggested the social and economic development of China under Song was in fact progressing rapidly towards something more similar to the sort of commercial capitalism that would later develop in Western Europe in the 1600s. If it were not for the mongol conquest, China might have developed into the world’s first capitalistic commercial maritime empire a good 2 centuries or more before England and Holland. They also pointed out due to its failure to survive the Mongol conquest, the path China was on under Song was repudiated by Confucian scholars under Ming. This view formed under Ming actually defined how China looked at itself down to almost the present day.

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Which Sinologists are this? Can you provide some sources?

gadgetcool5 said:

Which Sinologists are this? Can you provide some sources?

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Joseph Needham. Cambridge, “Science and civilization in China”
Davis S Landes. Harvard, “Wealth and Poverty of Nations”
Douglass North, Washington University, Nobel Prize in Economics 1993, “Structure and Change in Economic History”

Richard Santos said:

There are many examples in history where the fundamental domestic trends which will eventually lead to a state’s down fall were in fact set in motion well before the state actually reach the outward zenith of its power, wealth and success.
Some sinologists have pointed out the Ming dynasty, right from the beginning, structurally relied on a heavy top down bureaucracy to a much higher degree than previous Chinese dynasties. The cost of this bureaucracy made Ming peasantry the most heavily taxed of any major chinese dynasty. Ming’s inability to rein in its bureaucracy without losing control let to its decline down fall.
Also, the primacy of Confucian scholarly bureaucracy over the military, the merchant and the aristocratic classes under Ming is attributed to reaction to the fact that the influence of merchant classes, aristocracy and military had been seen, by those very scholars, as causes of fall of previous chinese dynasties.

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That is not right . Bureaucracy is not the cause of Ming downfall. On the contrary the Confucian Wang Yangming attempt to reform Chinese economy with dual pole tax reform. He is very influential in Japan and Korea and was instrumental in promoting reform in Japan during Meiji era. His good intention though end up burden the peasantry even more! Because he entrusted the execution of his reform by local gentry who are corrupt and exploited the peasantry even more. Later single whip tax reform was enacted

Ming decline started from emperor Wanli era. He is good emperor at the beginning but grew increasingly distant with time He entrusted the running of the country by Eunuch. Before Ming the role of eunuch is limited but by the time of Wanli they controlled everything the bureaucracy, army, ministry etc. Their contribute to the fall of Ming. For 30 years Wanli never attended ministerial meeting

But there are other causes The Imjin war was a drained on treasury necessitating increase in Tax that burden the peasantry. Lack of silver as the western power was in ascendancy and they crack down hard on smuggling of silver from Mexico thru pacific to China
These events occurring at roughly the same time caused a dramatic spike in the value of silver and made paying taxes nearly impossible for most provinces. People began hoarding precious silver as there was progressively less of it, forcing the ratio of the value of copper to silver into a steep decline. In the 1630s a string of one thousand equaled an ounce of silver; by 1640 that sum could fetch half an ounce; and, by 1643 only one-third of an ounce. For peasants this meant economic disaster, since they paid taxes in silver while conducting local trade and crop sales in copper. Recent historians have debated the validity of the theory that silver shortages caused the downfall of the Ming dynasty.

Rise of Manchu with great emperor of Huang Taizhi son of Qing founder Nurhaci

Peasant rebellion under Li Zhizeng and his clumsy partner who rape Wu Sangui lover forcing him to open the gate of strategic pass Shanhai to Dorgon end up in suicide of Ming emperor Gaozhen though he is hard working but the rot already set in
A peasant soldier named mutinied with his fellow soldiers in western Shaanxi in the early 1630s after the Ming government failed to ship much-needed supplies there. In 1634 he was captured by a Ming general and released only on the terms that he return to service. The agreement soon broke down when a local magistrate had thirty-six of his fellow rebels executed; Li's troops retaliated by killing the officials and continued to lead a rebellion based in Rongyang, central province by 1635. By the 1640s, an ex-soldier and rival to Li – (1606–1647) – had created a firm rebel base in , , while Li's center of power was in with extended influence over Shaanxi and Henan.

In 1640, masses of Chinese peasants who were starving, unable to pay their taxes, and no longer in fear of the frequently defeated Chinese army, began to form into huge bands of rebels. The Chinese military, caught between fruitless efforts to defeat the Manchu raiders from the north and huge peasant revolts in the provinces, essentially fell apart. Unpaid and unfed, the army was defeated by Li Zicheng – now self-styled as the Prince of – and deserted the capital without much of a fight. On 25 April 1644, Beijing fell to a rebel army led by Li Zicheng when the city gates were opened by rebel allies from within. During the turmoil, hanged himself outside the Forbidden City.