the best intelligence agency in the world??

militaryguy said:

WHy do you think that Chinese intelligence community was the best ? How did they effect all of us? How come Indians are the best right now?

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Easy the best because we don't hear a lot about them. But lately we know that they stole technologies, surpress Fa lun gong movement all over the world. That is what is known, further to it commercial inteligence gathering, military inteligence gathering etc etc. If we have not heard Chinese agents murdered someone with radio active capsule does not mean they are not effective and not high tech. They probably resort to some other means that the world does not notice. And again inteligence gathering is not as what we see in the movie (thanks assasin mace) the more we heard about an inteligence agency in the move, the worst they are. What they do is supposedly discreet and unknown by anyone, even to their own people. (What the left hand does the right hand does not need to know) But lately we know Chinese operative are everywhere, their member are not just "James Bonds" but tourist, student, worker etc etc.


How they effected our life? easy where do you live? Do you buy Chinese produced goods? Does your company tries to enter to the Chinese market? Does 3rd world country have become more independent from Western power? (I can go on) Do you think China is where they are now just by pulling policy out of thin air? If you worked in a company you know the management takes action based on reports graph field report etc etc to make correct decision. Who made these reports?

The reason they are not the best now is simple, a lot of the networks been uncovered. A lot of the activity is exposed. They are still good but not the best anymore.

That is the base of my opinion

Honestly the Mossad deserves its reputation. They work under the greatest sustained pressure and threat level that they have to be on their toes, or else their country probably wouldn't exist anymore.

AssassinsMace said:

Ironic because people do tend to look at the spygame as if it were like the movies when in actuality it's really more about people examining data. I don't think the US has many, most probably no spies in sensitive positions in China. Where would they be? If these Westerners were in China in "disguise" as employees or tourists... that's what I was talking about how it's a joke. They stick out like a sore thumb. You think they can walk in inconspicuously anywhere? The government would certainly keep its distance from domestic companies that have foreign employees which is not many in the first place. And how would they embed an agent with a ficticious background in the government? Now that's Hollywood! Really, if there's a problem with finding Chinese language fluent employees in the CIA and the FBI, how many of them look or are in fact Chinese and will choose and make it to the field? That's why most likely the US has no spies in sensitive areas in China. Ergo, why US intelligence on China is so bad.

US intelligence agents out in the field are more about paying people off for intelligence which can be highly unreliable and questionable in the first place but the safest route if you're paranoid which is a part of the spygame culture. Tom Clancy even said it was more about sitting behind a desk in Langley than agents in the field.

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I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

rrrtx said:

I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

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That could be one of the reasons.

But I bet the main reason is that "money talks". Lots of people are willing to sell you their first born with the right price, Chinese or non-Chinese. For this reason, I would think Western countries, US, UK, etc, should be quite successfully in intelligence gatherings inside China.

I do not buy the argument that because we didn't hear anything about the Chinese intelligence gatherings, they must be very successful.

I do not buy the argument that because we didn't hear anything about the Chinese intelligence gatherings, they must be very successful.

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Why not? i mean if an intelligence agency were to gather intelligence on a certain country yet everyone knew about it, it definitely means they are rubbish, unless they are purposely doing it to feed the other side information, same goes for the fact their intelligence can be manipulated into giving false information also.
If we can't find out anything about them, or hear anything about them, they have to be successful to the extent that they have managed to keep things like this hidden and under wraps so no one knows, thats what its all about, how hard can that be to understand?

rrrtx said:

I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

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The spygame has been romaticized by Hollywood. Nothing glamorous in reality. All the intelligence mishaps regarding Iraq pretty much says how the CIA works. They don't have agents in foreign governments. It's all about paying people off for information which is why the US got faulty information in the first place. Really, if the US was so successful in intelligence gathering in China, why would they call for China to be more transparent? Meaning the US doesn't know what's going in China. I'm sure someone will say that's the plan to say the US knows nothing. This stubborn belief that the US has to be successful in espionage is the reason why I don't buy the excuse that the US feigns failure. Americans make Chinese espionage in the US out to be a clandestine organized operation when it's probably as simply as someone just trying to make money.

The test surely of a good Intelligence Agency, is not only the ability yto avoid detection, but for their country to be able to show advances and developments at a rate far faster than domestic research would be deemed capable of generating.

You would also expect any dissidents or overseas opponents to be quietly neutralised and rendered impotent, but without sensational International headlines being generated.

That is the criteria, now to whom would you consider that it best fitted?

AssassinsMace said:

The spygame has been romaticized by Hollywood. Nothing glamorous in reality. All the intelligence mishaps regarding Iraq pretty much says how the CIA works. They don't have agents in foreign governments. It's all about paying people off for information which is why the US got faulty information in the first place. Really, if the US was so successful in intelligence gathering in China, why would they call for China to be more transparent? Meaning the US doesn't know what's going in China. I'm sure someone will say that's the plan to say the US knows nothing. This stubborn belief that the US has to be successful in espionage is the reason why I don't buy the excuse that the US feigns failure. Americans make Chinese espionage in the US out to be a clandestine organized operation when it's probably as simply as someone just trying to make money.

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Well, you're right that Hollywood has done a bang up job representing the intelligence field. In all actuality, The U.S.'s intelligence was co-aligned with many intelligence agencies in the world regarding Iraq's weapons programs. Perhaps not the "stockpiles" that never materialized. But the Russians, Isreali intelligence, Britian's, and German intelligence all had reported that Iraq had weapons programs and were seeking materials to build weapons. But even so, the weapons were only a fraction of why Iraq was invaded. Take a look at all the UN resolutions that Saddam stuck his nose up at.

In regards to the U.S.'s intelligence on China. You wouldn't know what they have. This stuff sounds exactly the same as the stuff we heard from Cold War circles. Sampan probably remembers. The Soviet Union thought they were acheiving all these intelligence bonanza's on the West, particularly the USA, and we found out after the Soviet Union disintegrated that the US and Britian made sure that the Soviets got what they wanted......with alot of Trojan Horses into it. This is why I think China is the easiest counterintelligence target in the world. Because they are so starved for technical info, and any other piece of scientific knowledge they can get.

Plus the fact that there are so many Western people in China, it would be utterly easy to recruit someone for collection. The fact that you're seeing reports on the internet that "officials" seek a more transparent China is meaningless. And something you can roll your eyes at. I do believe that US intelligence agencies have plenty of info on China, or have ways to get the info they seek. I do know that not everyone in China is in lockstep with the government. And they're driven by money or other motivators as well. In counterintelligence, China is totally vulnerable. China's strength in building an economy by inviting all these foreign entities in, may also be her biggest internal intelligence weakness. The Soviets were not as open to foreign business interests, were extremely paranoid, yet we got all the poop we needed from them. And we exploited their own greed for technical info. This is so reminiscent of the 1980's. Thankfully, you nor I will never know.

SampanViking said:

That is the criteria,

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Who did you have in mind? I think the best intelligence agency would be one that could collect, properly analyze, and properly disseminate it's data. And be an entity you'd think were never interested in collection of this data, and you didn't know they were ever there.

Wrong forum. ->world forces.
This isn't about anything Chinese.

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All I will say about China's intel community is that they have a pretty good hacker program.

DIA? I have never even heard of that.

Does anyone know how long the KGB defectant (don't know name) that died in London was able to defect before meeting his fate?
CIA? No way.

My pick is the Mossad, followed by MI-6

Plus the fact that there are so many Western people in China, it would be utterly easy to recruit someone for collection. The fact that you're seeing reports on the internet that "officials" seek a more transparent China is meaningless. And something you can roll your eyes at. I do believe that US intelligence agencies have plenty of info on China, or have ways to get the info they seek. I do know that not everyone in China is in lockstep with the government. And they're driven by money or other motivators as well. In counterintelligence, China is totally vulnerable. China's strength in building an economy by inviting all these foreign entities in, may also be her biggest internal intelligence weakness. The Soviets were not as open to foreign business interests, were extremely paranoid, yet we got all the poop we needed from them. And we exploited their own greed for technical info. This is so reminiscent of the 1980's. Thankfully, you nor I will never know.

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The fact is the vast majority of people in China aren't in sensitive positions and we haven't seen any signifcant defections since the 1970s. So if there were so much political discontent in China, why haven't we seen a lot of important defections? And the US treats these discontented people you speak of so wonderfully? The last person who cried for and was released with US help for being wrongfully imprisoned in China, was charged with corporate espionage for China in the US and was to be deported back to be persecuted. I think that case alone has sent a message in both the US and in China. In the US... more paranoia now that lauded dissidents are "double-agents" now spying against the US. And in China... the US can easily send you back to China to be persecuted. You are sadly mistaken to think there's a lot of political discontent in China. That vast majority of people just want their families to have a comfortable life. That's why the communist government has been able to stay in power. They get the people more care about their living standard than politics. People protest for economic reasons all the time. It's the political protests that get you in trouble. If China were that vulnerable, then why all the complaining and fear from the US? China inviting foreign entities to do what? The US has restrictions to what US companies can do in China. And I thought that China was the one behind in everything, so what would these spies get out of China? They certainly don't have access to the government in what they do in their corporate commercial world. What do they have access to that is so sensitive for China? And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall. The Soviet Union collapsed because she couldn't keep up with Reagan's arms build-up. Do you see China frantically trying to keep up with the US? China has been very pragmatic with their military contrary to the propaganda from the US about China's military build-up. In fact, the US seems to be in the paranoid position the Soviets were in in regards to China these days.

The U.S.'s intelligence was co-aligned with many intelligence agencies in the world regarding Iraq's weapons programs. Perhaps not the "stockpiles" that never materialized. But the Russians, Isreali intelligence, Britian's, and German intelligence all had reported that Iraq had weapons programs and were seeking materials to build weapons. But even so, the weapons were only a fraction of why Iraq was invaded. Take a look at all the UN resolutions that Saddam stuck his nose up at.

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Hence proving my point that the intelligence game doesn't live up to the hype. All those agencies got it wrong? That pretty much says it all!