Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

mys_721tx

mys_721tx

Junior Member
Registered Member
druid198405 said:
Well Japan does make some of the world's best submarines, so, between those two Japan would be better. Politically, America would be safer, maybe they can get a European design?
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Politically, European arm sale's viability is questionable at best. In 1980s, the Netherlands sold Taiwan subs. The Mainland downgraded the bilateral relationship to the Netherlands to Chargé d'affaires level. In 1990s, France sold Taiwan Dassault Mirage. It led to the termination of serval Sino-French joint ventures and the closure of French Consulate General in Guangzhou.

Also, the last conventional American submarine was launched in 1959. Even if the American proposal is selected, it is very unlikely that the sub will be built in US.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
mys_721tx said:
Also, the last conventional American submarine was launched in 1959. Even if the American proposal is selected, it is very unlikely that the sub will be built in US.
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The Taiwanese government seems pretty set that they want to build domestically so this later part is not as much an issue. The US is more likely though to be a Tech supplier then a designer. Combat systems, Communications, Life support, power generation, Sensors and observation, Raw materials, Weapons and launch tubes, coatings, sealing and sound proofing can be sourced from the US.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The Taiwanese government seems pretty set that they want to build domestically so this later part is not as much an issue. The US is more likely though to be a Tech supplier then a designer. Combat systems, Communications, Life support, power generation, Sensors and observation, Raw materials, Weapons and launch tubes, coatings, sealing and sound proofing can be sourced from the US.
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Taiwan is set on domestic production because no one who makes conventional subs are going to sell to them.

It’s less a choice and more of not having any other viable choice.

While the US can supply a lot of stuff like combat systems, weapons and probably also make or help Taiwan make the pressure hulls themselves, what the US lacks, and which no one will sell to Taiwan, are going to be the AIP, Diesel engine quieting/dampening tech, and other associated sub engines tech.

Just as you cannot expect to plug a random miniature nuclear reactor into a conventional sub and expect a top SSN, you cannot just drop random commercial batteries and marine diesel engines in an SSN and expect it to make a good SSK.

China can make world class SSKs, but still struggle with SSNs; I would expect the US to have even more problems trying to convert their SSN expertise into making world leading SSKs. Since unlike China who has also been working with SSNs, the US has not touch SSK design in decades. So they will be starting from a much lower relative knowledge and technical base about what makes a good modern SSK and how to make it.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
plawolf said:
While the US can supply a lot of stuff like combat systems, weapons and probably also make or help Taiwan make the pressure hulls themselves, what the US lacks, and which no one will sell to Taiwan, are going to be the AIP, Diesel engine quieting/dampening tech, and other associated sub engines tech.
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This is Mostly Accurate. The US is a Leader in Fuel cell technology though. But it would have to have an Interest in 1) adapting to the Navy.
2)Exporting.
That said there is Still Experience in the US for Diesel electric drones.
plawolf said:
Just as you cannot expect to plug a random miniature nuclear reactor into a conventional sub and expect a top SSN, you cannot just drop random commercial batteries and marine diesel engines in an SSN and expect it to make a good SSK.
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This one needs to be split in 2
On the First half you are more or less correct.
On the Second you are Wrong. you Are Wrong as All SSN and SSBN retain conventional Power packs as a Auxiliary power and Emergency system.
plawolf said:
China can make world class SSKs, but still struggle with SSNs; I would expect the US to have even more problems trying to convert their SSN expertise into making world leading SSKs.
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The US has not been making Manned SSK's but has been working in unmanned. Boeing's Echo Voyager is a 51 foot unmanned boat That is to small for a proper manned SSK about Half the Size of a North Korean or Iran SSK a Third the size of a Type 207 a Quarter that of a Ula class or a Type 212. Yet it means there is some capacity. It's a matter of taking that and Scaling up.

In the End though I generally agree and you seem to as well that what the US can best offer is systems. The Design will have to come from somewhere else, And Production from Taiwan. The US doesn't have a Fleet yard that is contracting off Export SSK or SSP boats. And SSN boats are almost never exported by any nation.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Oh great, they're going for 108 M1A2 Abrams, for nearly $1 billion. Assuming they're going through with the planned M60 domestic upgrades as well, that's $2 billion, which would be pretty much the entire Army procurement for the forseeable future (that money would be better spent on something like upgrading tube artillery or MRSAM systems.

Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense (MND) has decided to acquire a new fleet of 108 US-made M1A2 Abrams main battle tanks to replace some M60A3 Patton and CM-11 Brave Tiger tanks in service, according to a news
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published on the Taipei Times website on 10 July.

The potential deal, said the newspaper, is valued at NT30 billion (USD9.87 billion) and will call for the tanks to be delivered for two armored battalions under the 6th Army Corps stationed in northern Taiwan.

The Taipei Times cited an anonymous source reported that Taiwan’s government is to buy “about 100” tanks to equip two armored battalions, with the training of a seed cadre and a five-year supply of spare parts included in the package.

At the moment, the Armed Forces of Taiwan are in desperate need to update the fleet of their battle tanks, which primarily consist of obsolete tanks of the M60A3 Patton and CM-11 Brave Tiger type. Under expert assessment, Taiwan needs to purchase more than 500 new tanks for parity with the armed forces of continental China.

The CM-11 Brave Tiger is one of the modern tanks in army service, that was developed by the American General Dynamics and the Republic of China Army (ROCA) Armored Vehicle Development Center. It is an advanced version of the of the M48 Patton, it is also known as the M48H Main Battle Tank. Some CM-11 tanks also equipped with Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) developed by CSIST.

In turn, the M1A2 Abrams is a tank of the next generation, compared with M60A3 Patton and CM-11 Brave Tiger tanks. Acquisition of more than a hundred new M1A2 Abrams tanks will truly increase the capabilities of theArmed Forces of Taiwan.

The newspaper also noted that tank purchase is only a part of the army’s plan to replace the vehicles, weapons and other equipment that have been in service for more than 25 years.

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If they do go through and buy 500 new Abrams... It's like the USN buying a monitor with 406mm cannons- an expensive asset of questionable utility at best, whose survival is doubtful when used in combat.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Digging around, it looks even worse:

So the 108 is a compromise from the original 500 tank purchase (in other words, a white elephant since it takes up a lot of money, but doesn't come anywhere close to actual operational numbers). Sounds like Tsai approved the token purchase since a real nation is supposed to have modern MBTs, or some such.

And the $987 million price is only for the initial payment, so the total costs could reach at least $1.5 billion when everything is executed.

Executive Yuan backs plan to buy 108 Abrams tanks
By Lo Tien-pin And Jonathan Chin

The Executive Yuan supports the Ministry of National Defense’s request to buy US-made M1A2 Abrams main battle tanks, a high-ranking defense official confirmed yesterday.

The ministry decided to purchase 108 of the tanks for two armored battalions under the Sixth Army Corps stationed in northern Taiwan, after it turned down the army’s request to buy 500 tanks, the official said on condition of anonymity.

The new tanks are to replace some of the M60A3 Patton and CM-11 Brave Tiger tanks in service, he said, adding that the Executive Yuan has earmarked about NT$30 billion (US$9.87 billion) for the purchase.

Earlier yesterday, the Chinese-language China Times cited an anonymous source as saying that the government has decided to buy M1A2 tanks and that President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) backs the idea.

The government is to buy “about 100” tanks to equip two battalions, with the training of a seed cadre and a five-year supply of spare parts included in the package, the report said.

The budget covers only the initial cost, as the US opens production lines next year, the report said, adding that the delivery of the contract is likely to carry a substantially higher cost.

The tank purchase is only a part of the army’s plan to replace the vehicles, weapons and other equipment that have been in service for more than 25 years, the defense official said.

The army’s budget proposal, titled “the Follow-up Plan for the Procurement of Important New Combat Systems for the Army,” called for the acquisition of tanks, mobile air defense systems, anti-tank guided missiles, self-propelled mortars and 155mm howitzers, armored troop carriers, tracked recovery vehicles and rifles, he said.

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SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Skywatcher said:
the problem is that they're a group of retired Japanese engineers, not an actual shipbuilder.
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It states engineers but does not specify what kind of engineers.
They could be design engineers or manufacturing engineers or both.
In manufacturing industry they are both engineers so we do not know which.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Skywatcher said:
Digging around, it looks even worse:

So the 108 is a compromise from the original 500 tank purchase (in other words, a white elephant since it takes up a lot of money, but doesn't come anywhere close to actual operational numbers). Sounds like Tsai approved the token purchase since a real nation is supposed to have modern MBTs, or some such.

And the $987 million price is only for the initial payment, so the total costs could reach at least $1.5 billion when everything is executed.
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Well being honest here 500 Abrams for Taiwan seems... A bit much. The US didn't sell that many to Australia, Kawait, Saudia Arabia, Iraq or Morrocco. I mean that would be More Abrams then the (larger) USMC has. 200 was the number I kept seeing floaded as the goal and makes some sense. 100+ is not bad, upgrades to the M60A3 can make up the remainder. The vast majority of The ROC army right now is made up of M48 Patton series which is an inferior form of the Patton. M60 has some room to grow Ratheon Leonardo, IWI and General Dynamics all have had programs to move the M60 into the modern Third generation. Heck Jordan is about to retire there Challanger 1 Tanks in favor of upgunned referbs of the M60A3.
 
sequ

sequ

Major
Registered Member
Well, those M1's wil be great in plinking LST, hovercrafts, amphibious vehicles and such during a potential invasion. And they can can be quickly moved around to plug gaps in (static) defences.
 
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