Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Skywatcher said:

The question is can the ROC cough up money for both a multi-billion dollar upgrade and the new F-16 purchase? Looks like one of the other services will have to be cut.

Taiwan isn't going to get any subs, unless they get refurbished LA class SSNs.

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They have known the block 20s will need upgrades for years and there was discussion with Pratt a few years ago already on engine upgrades, probably more a -220P upgrade than a total replacement with the -229. They also want the block 50s to replace the F5s, so while both programs may not happen concurrently, they will happen as buying enough new planes to replace the block 20s will definitely not happen for a long long time!

Nuclear subs will never happen. I think they would be quite happy with a few SSKs, maybe GD can buy those Greek type 214s which haven't been delivered. DCN and Thales owe Taipei almost 3/4 billion $ according to that recent tribunal decision over the Lafayette "commissions". They obviously aren't likely to pay that, or even have that sort of cash to pay out, but they do have something of value to that order that Taipei wants, like the Skorpene design. GD Electric Boats could no doubt come up with something very functional very quickly for Taipei if they start with the complete Skorpene design as a starting point!

cptplt said:

Nuclear subs will never happen. I think they would be quite happy with a few SSKs, maybe GD can buy those Greek type 214s which haven't been delivered. DCN and Thales owe Taipei almost 3/4 billion $ according to that recent tribunal decision over the Lafayette "commissions". They obviously aren't likely to pay that, or even have that sort of cash to pay out, but they do have something of value to that order that Taipei wants, like the Skorpene design. GD Electric Boats could no doubt come up with something very functional very quickly for Taipei if they start with the complete Skorpene design as a starting point!

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The Greeks managed to cough up the money for the Type 214s (at least one more of them) and Germany certainly isn't going to anger China that way.

The French can't afford to annoy the Chinese either, unless they want a Chinese arms sales team following Rafale and Thales around where ever they go for the next ten years. The Chinese probably won't steal away any orders, but they will force France to be more competitive, which will really hurt the profit margins.

At this point, the ROCN is advised just to build the subs domestically (they're not that hard to build, the Iranians and Yugoslavians pulled it off).

No way the French will hand the Skorpene design off to America (unless they want to have American competition on top of everyone else and their cousin).

Didn't realize the Greek s and Krupps had sorted out some deal.

Everyone said Paris couldn't afford to upset Beijing in 92 either, they only got one consulate closed (maybe they would welcome a cutback in Foreign Ministry expenses in these budget tight days anyway! ) and maybe they lost out on some deals but who will ever know.

Taipei will have the property rights for the subs, GD will simply be the contractor. I doubt Paris is that worried about "Americans" getting hold of their sub plans per se, Bush wanted the Spanish to sell S80s to Taipei and thats just a Spanishfied Skorpene. Similarly the Germans had few problems with their designs being made by NG in US for Egypt and Israel but that fell through.

cptplt said:

Everyone said Paris couldn't afford to upset Beijing in 92 either, they only got one consulate closed (maybe they would welcome a cutback in Foreign Ministry expenses in these budget tight days anyway! ) and maybe they lost out on some deals but who will ever know.

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China in 1992 couldn't build J-10s, ZTZ-99s or Yuan SSKs, all of which are currently credible competitors to equivalent French systems.

If you give GD a legs up in building a SSK, they will start to export a similar product soon enough. There's simply too much money to be made in the submarine export market for them not to.

Skywatcher said:

China in 1992 couldn't build J-10s, ZTZ-99s or Yuan SSKs, all of which are currently credible competitors to equivalent French systems.

If you give GD a legs up in building a SSK, they will start to export a similar product soon enough. There's simply too much money to be made in the submarine export market for them not to.

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Indeed, generally France gains most of its military sales from unaligned countries in the Middle East, South America, and Africa. These also happen to be the the same markets China also hopes to enter.

Skywatcher said:

China in 1992 couldn't build J-10s, ZTZ-99s or Yuan SSKs, all of which are currently credible competitors to equivalent French systems.

If you give GD a legs up in building a SSK, they will start to export a similar product soon enough. There's simply too much money to be made in the submarine export market for them not to.

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Not sure what Chinas ability today to compete with France has to do with what Paris will do with Taipei.

The customers for an SSK which Washington will allow a sale from a US shipyard who don't design their own already can be counted on one hand probably. The only sale which may be stolen from the French or another EU nation will be more subs for Israel, Egypt, maybe ROK. And the first two weren't likely to be French customers, unless Paris pays for the subs for Israel like Bonn did.

AIDC official press release. AIDC upgrades 71 Ching Kuo IDF, from 2010 to 2012.
First batch of six: four single-seaters and two double-seaters arrived at AIDC on 21 September 2010. The first upgraded IDF will be delivered by the end of the year.

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Looks like the IDF upgrades are FINALLY rolling out

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the link dies as soon a I post it

cptplt said:

Not sure what Chinas ability today to compete with France has to do with what Paris will do with Taipei.

The customers for an SSK which Washington will allow a sale from a US shipyard who don't design their own already can be counted on one hand probably. The only sale which may be stolen from the French or another EU nation will be more subs for Israel, Egypt, maybe ROK. And the first two weren't likely to be French customers, unless Paris pays for the subs for Israel like Bonn did.

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If France sells weapons to Taiwan, China will complicate France's other arms sales by price cutting with equivalent platforms.

Washington would be pretty lax with the sale of SSKs, let's who would be interested: Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, pretty much anyone who's a major non NATO ally and with a navy.

Skywatcher said:

If France sells weapons to Taiwan, China will complicate France's other arms sales by price cutting with equivalent platforms.

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Aren't France and China competing already? As it stands it seems the nations who would buy Chinese rather than French on price would probably have not been able to afford French prices anyway or if they really are comparing the two they would willingly pay extra for the real or imaginary better French "quality".

Semi-Lobster said:

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Looks like the IDF upgrades are FINALLY rolling out

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the link dies as soon a I post it

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Per this

they will have a 700kg higher payload, how did they manage that without some more engine power (which I suspect is the way they did it with some weight cutting) or a very very major weight loss program - much more difficult??

cptplt said:

Aren't France and China competing already? As it stands it seems the nations who would buy Chinese rather than French on price would probably have not been able to afford French prices anyway or if they really are comparing the two they would willingly pay extra for the real or imaginary better French "quality".

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Right now the Chinese aren't competing with France (the Chinese weren't anymore around the Brazillian SSK deal), not because they can't but because unlike the French defense industry, China is not dependent on arms export for the industry's survival. The French aren't going to give China any motivation to start flooding the developing world with fighter jets and diesel submarines.

Saudi Arabia and Egypt certainly can pay French prices, but that hasn't stopped them from picking Chinese products in the past and present.