T-80

Generally it's true, but i do not share utelore's opinion on the whole concept. Comparing armor of the first production T-72 to T-90M you can see the real difference - 800-900 against 300-400 anti-sabot and 1900 against 300-400 anti-HEAT. Surely makes some difference, and approximately the same we can see at the firepower characteristics. Generally saying so solid things about some "conceptual T-72" is dumb. What would you think of me if i'd say "M1A2 is shit, cause it is based on original M1, which had shitty 105mm gun and no chobham"?

The russians need to just do away with their current designs and go to a western design.

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On the countrary - it is US that goes for more russian-style designs now.

Syria I do not believe there has been a tank to tank kill by a T-72 vs. a Israeli M-60A3 or Merkava.

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This is not clever at all. M-60A<whatever> virtually does not have armor, even earlier 125mm shell would go through it like through butter, while 105mm Sabot shells simply fell aside of T-72's frontal armor.

And saying that T-72 is bad cause you can kill it with RPG is either lame of purposely hypocritic as well. Almost any tank could be killed with RPG from the rear of flank, no matter what tank it is - T-72, or M1A2 (though some tanks like Leopard2 or Leklerk have tough turret armor on flanks)

The first production of the M1 did have chobham. Anyway here is the deal. I have operated various M1 abrams. I have had a close look of a T-90/80/72 Yes that right a T-90 there is one sitting in aberdeen maryland as we speak. I have been in a leo-2 merkava-1 challenger and just about every other MBT out there. There is no way you can compare the T-90 or any other back generation T-72 base design to even a OLDER abrams thats right I said it....a OLDER abrams with a 105mm would prob survive hits to its front aspect from the most mordern rounds fired by a T-90. This has been tested and have gotten second had accounts of this from my friends in U.S army TRADOC that the training and doctrine command.

Please understand I am not trying to piss off you fantical lovers of russian arms but am simply speaking facts. I actuly before joining the army was in love with the T-80 design myself. It was sleak and exotic with a great big 125mm gun.....BUT HERE THE DEAL.....IT DOSNT WORK.....CHEERS UTE.

This is not clever at all. M-60A<whatever> virtually does not have armor, even earlier 125mm shell would go through it like through butter, while 105mm Sabot shells simply fell aside of T-72's frontal armor

THIS IS INCORRECT. SYRIAN T-72 WERE KILLED IN DROVES BY ISREAL MERKAVA 1 WITH A 105MM. many iraq T-72 were killed by marine M-60A3 with 105mm. Hell the rounds that were killing the syrians were even Tungstun sabot. but you are right about the armour on a M-60 it is very poor maybe just a little better that a T-72:roll:

Yes that right a T-90 there is one sitting in aberdeen maryland as we speak.

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Prove this, sounds impossible.

abrams with a 105mm would prob survive hits to its front aspect from the most mordern rounds fired by a T-90.

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You obviously don't know, what are you talking about...

Please understand I am not trying to piss off you fantical lovers of russian arms but am simply speaking facts.

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You did not mention a single fact here, just your thoughts.

THIS IS INCORRECT. SYRIAN T-72 WERE KILLED IN DROVES BY ISREAL MERKAVA 1 WITH A 105MM.

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Mainguns of Merkava and M60 differ, you should know this if you claim to be an "expert".

many iraq T-72 were killed by marine M-60A3 with 105mm

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Though there is no proof, this is still possible. As well as M1 can be killed by T-62. If you don't know how, then conversation is over.

but you are right about the armour on a M-60 it is very poor maybe just a little better that a T-72

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You don't have any other proofs except this rolling smiley. I prefer to refer to numbers.
From what i've heared i begin to suspect you're too young to be a tank crew member. As i told before you didn't mention a single fact, too childish.

I am 33 years of age served with Delta co "death dealers" 2-8 cav"mustang battalion" 1st cav Division from 91-94... 19Kilo armour crewman with service in Gulf war 1. But any way I am done conversing with this ALUKA guy when he starts personal attacks by calling me childish. I have not attacked you in any way. I am simply stating what I have seen and heard. If you do not believe me well fine dont believe me.......to all others on the board with the exception of Aluka....cheers ute

You see, you did not have anything i can believe in or not. This T-90 in maryland thing was the last drop. How could it happend? And if not childish (my bad, im sorry, didnt mean to attack you), then utterly unprofessional. Provide proper source.
About talking serious - what was that:

but you are right about the armour on a M-60 it is very poor maybe just a little better that a T-72

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M60A3 has 250mm/sabot and 270mm/heat, while T-72M has 400mm/sabot, 800mm/heat on glacis, and about 350mm of both on turret.

Aditionally basic M1 version has about 550mm/sabot armor, while Russia's most advanced sabot shell (among fielded) - 3BM42M pierces about 600mm at 4000m.

about 4 or 5 days after the ground war we had several Iraqi T-72. we took those victors out and shot at them with various weapons. We used bradleys, Marine M-60A3 and a french unit with AMX-10. ALL including the Bradley defeated the front aspect of the T-72 although it took a few 25mm to do it. The M60 105mm and that french thing went right through the frontal slop and turret of the T-72. Just a note the Bradley had to get much closer 500 TO 700 METERS than the big boys (AT AROUND 1500 METERS) to defeat the T-72's armour. As far a the M1A1 with the 120mm I killed maybe 3 T-72 that were sitting behind 7 feet of sand berm at 1500 to 2000 meters with DU APFSDS.

SO ALUKA YOU CAN SPIT OUT ALL THE BOOK FACTS YOU WANT TO IF YOU DONT BELIEVE....OK....BUT I WAS THERE AND WE DID THIS.

Sounds strange, even american articles on war in Iraq mention only peneteration of rear part of the turret with 30mm. And book facts about armor and peneteration all consider minimum range of 2000m. I am totally sure that 3BM42M would kill M1A1 at a range of 1000m with guarantee (though M1A2's turret's "brow" will most likely survive such hit). DU APFSDS peneterates like 850mm at 2000m, imagine what could it do to 400mm armor at 1500 (sand bags are butter). Also note that T-72's turret isn't composite.
Anyway what's the point in comparing downgraded tank from 70s to 99's T-90? And once again - how could T-90 make it to USA?

Aluka said:

Mainguns of Merkava and M60 differ, you should know this if you claim to be an "expert".

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Okay Akula, I think that you need to check your data before also, Ute, correct me if I mistake, the main gun of the US M60 Patton is the M68 L/51 105mm which is a licensed copy of the british L7A1, surprisely the Merkava is also a 105mm gun which is the L7A1 but called localy under the name of the M64. Remember something, in this time, the M60, M48A5 and Centurion MBT used by Isreal were ALL equiped with the L7A1 105mm Rifled Gun of the Royal Ordonnance. Even the captured T-55 were refitted with the L7A1 105mm main gun.

A T-72 can easily killed by a 105mm gun, it's normal 'cause of our ammo used now.. I'll give you an easy exemple, the 105mm AFSDS round by our Leopard C2 can pierce 700mm of armor at a range og 1,200m. It's almost the twice of the front glassis of your T-72, so your can forget survivibility of you russian T-62/64/72 tank on modern battlefied.

Aluka said:

Sounds strange, even american articles on war in Iraq mention only peneteration of rear part of the turret with 30mm. And book facts about armor and peneteration all consider minimum range of 2000m. I am totally sure that 3BM42M would kill M1A1 at a range of 1000m with guarantee (though M1A2's turret's "brow" will most likely survive such hit). DU APFSDS peneterates like 850mm at 2000m, imagine what could it do to 400mm armor at 1500 (sand bags are butter). Also note that T-72's turret isn't composite.
Anyway what's the point in comparing downgraded tank from 70s to 99's T-90? And once again - how could T-90 make it to USA?

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You forget the TOW on the Bradley I think...

Well, for the T-90, their acquire them the same way as their acquire some YF-110 and YF-113 (go check what's the real name of those 2 planes)

***********The russians will cell anything to anybody for money. YOU REALY DONT THINK THE RICHEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET CANT GET A T-90? HELL, india has more than 300 hundred of them. its not that big of a deal to get a T-90. There is a T-80U sitting at fort Irwin that is open for any military guy just to get into. Its not that big of a deal.