Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

cn_habs

Junior Member
as i always said, there are 2 threats Syria poses, SAMs and anti-ship missiles

the jet was not downed in Syrian airspace, and this is a violation of international law, Turkey should now take serious steps to neutralise these threats

Syria has never shot down any Israeli airforce jets who routinenly violate and bomb Syria, yet when Turkish jets are doing routine patrol they shot it down? cus they seem to think that they can get away with it, whereas with Israel they wont, how cowardly

Turkish should drop in special forces to take out coastal defences and send in high low mix of jets and knock out the Syrian batterys who have also been shelling Turkish border, they have also killed Turkish border guards who look after Syrian refugess

---------- Post added at 06:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------



Turkey is a established and responsible NATO power, the recon aircraft had open radio communication, it had identified itself as a Turkish airforce jet

Syrian airdefence should have established contact, given a warning, then forced to plane to land in extreme situtaion, it is very irresponsible to down a aircraft without following international procedure

just recently Turkish airforce has taken delivery of 4 x Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft, this will give Turkey the capability to see inside Syria from a distance, they have no reason to "test" Syrian airdefences

A recon mission isn't out of the question right?

If the wannabe tough guy Erdogan hasn't done anything so far, chances are the Turkish were doing something they aren't willing to admit to the public and mostly likely in Syrian airspace. This was a guy who completely turned against China because of what Uighur terrorists did in Xinjiang in order to get more votes.

Once again we don't know that but the odds are against what you stated above.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Uighur and Xinjiang?? i dont understand what that has to do with the situation at hand, stick to the topic

downing a non-hostile aircraft in international waters without warning is a clear violation of international law

the standard procedure is to first establish communication, then issue a warning, then intercept to force a landing using escorts

firing on a aircraft is very irresponsible
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Uighur and Xinjiang?? i dont understand what that has to do with the situation at hand, stick to the topic

downing a non-hostile aircraft in international waters without warning is a clear violation of international law

the standard procedure is to first establish communication, then issue a warning, then intercept to force a landing using escorts

firing on a aircraft is very irresponsible

Sorry asif, but that version does not stack up at all.
Reuters are reporting that the wreck is in a known location 10 miles from the Syrian coast, well inside Syrian territorial waters. I am not aware of anyone denying that it was shot down by tripe A, so the notion of a flack wagon chucking it out over 20kms is risible.

Finally on the BBC, a Turkish spokesman let it slip when he said:

Mr Davutoglu also insisted that the jet had not been on a "covert mission related to Syria" but had instead been carrying out a training flight to test Turkey's radar capabilities.

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That is pretty much an admission that the Phantom was engaged in EW and the claim that it was just testing its own RADARS is frankly disingenuous. Not only does this contradict the two previous versions of the Turkish story, it then would raise the issue of reckless stupidity of not informing its neighbour that such an exercise on its borders were taking place.

I have no doubt, that this Phantom was seeing if it could burn a hole in Syrian AD's and that it was doing it on behalf of NATO to help prepare for any eventual R2P. These Phantoms I am told have been heavily upgraded as recon birds and carry a lot of very fancy Israeli goodies. I suspect that the signatures of these may have been picked up by the Syrians and as such sealed the aircraft's fate.

I still wonder why so little is being said about the second aircraft though?!
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Ok heres another story as its emerges

just a few days ago Syrian Mig21 defected to Jordan, since then Syrian airdefence has been under orders to down any aircraft which is deemed to defecting from its airspace

under this scenario Syrian airdefences didnt think twice and engaged the Turkish Jet, i was thinking, how did Syria manage to grow so much guts to openly engage Turkish fighter aircraft, they would not be so irresponsible because its asking for trouble

after realising it was a Turkish jet Syria has actually co-operated with Turkey on all levels and both countrys have been searching for the downed aircraft, the navys of both nations have searched the waters

so now it seems like it could simply have been a mis-understanding and mis-communication, guess we will have to wait for more details but now the dynamic has changed altogether
 

SteelBird

Colonel
When I read the first report, it said the jet was down by AA gun. Does anybody has different idea on this? If the jet was down by AA gun, I wonder where the AA gun was located? We all know that AA guns have limited range and usually in visual range. So, I don't quite agree that the engagement was in international airspace.
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Uighur and Xinjiang?? i dont understand what that has to do with the situation at hand, stick to the topic

downing a non-hostile aircraft in international waters without warning is a clear violation of international law

the standard procedure is to first establish communication, then issue a warning, then intercept to force a landing using escorts

firing on a aircraft is very irresponsible

When China was cracking down on Uighur terrorists who bombed a Xinjian police station Erdogan immediately made quite a scene by condemning the Chinese government in order to boost his image at home. The typical acting like a tough guy bs you know.

In comparison, it almost took the Turkish two days to issue any clear response after his own pilot was shot down by a much weaker country near his doorstep. If the Turkish air force was indeed in international airspace, then it must have been the slowest response ever by a supposedly proud country.

Thus, the Turkish claim of its plane being in international airspace is most likely false and the Reuters report further confirmed this plausible suspicion. It's simply the most logical scenario that Turkey was conducting some sort of secret activity in Syrian airspace where its plane was unintentionally shot down by Syrian AA defense.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
Independent_Turkic_States_2010.jpg
Turkey has strong feelings towards their Central Asian Turkish brothers, including the Uighurs(not on the map of independent Turkish countries) and wants to be the champion of all Turkish causes because Turkey sees herself as the mightiest Turkish nation. It can be compared to Chinese concerns over violence against oversea Chinese in Indonesia or US special relations with the other Anglo-Saxon countries.
Saying anything about defending Turks somewhere is a cheap way to gather sympathies in Turkey and the risk of an adverse backlash in the case of the Uighurs was not severe enough. If there are enough Turkish tribes in Syria, like in Iraq, Turkey can easily gather the internal support for crossing her border in arms again to interfere in a neighbour state. About 7.5% of Syrian population, most of them concentrated in the insurgent north, are Turkish speaking Turks and additional about 10% of the Syrian population are claimed to be of Turkish descend, but speaking Arabic.
 
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frodo12

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Intrigues courtesy of atimes.com

Syria puts double whammy on Turkey
By M K Bhadrakumar

The shooting down of a Turkish fighter aircraft by Syria on Friday has become a classic case of coercive diplomacy.

A Turkish F-4 Phantom fighter aircraft disappeared from radar screens shortly after taking off from the Erhach airbase in Malatya province in southeastern Turkey and entered Syrian airspace. According to Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA), air-defense forces shot down the plane 1 kilometer off the coast from the Syrian port city of Latakia. A Turkish search-and-rescue aircraft rushed to the area of the crash but came under Syrian fire and had to pull out.

The Russian naval base at Tartus is only 90 kilometers by road from Latakia. The incident took place on a day that Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem was on a visit to Russia.

It also happened within a week of Britain staging a high-profile



publicity event to humiliate Russia by canceling the insurance of a ship when it was off the coast of Scotland en route to Syria from Russia's Baltic port in Kaliningrad. British Foreign Secretary William Hague scrambled to take credit for that in the House of Commons.

The shooting down of the Turkish jet also coincides with a hardening of the Russian position on Syria. Moscow refused to comment on the incident when Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu telephoned his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov on Sunday seeking understanding.

Itar-Tass quoted the Russian Foreign Ministry as saying the two diplomats "discussed the situation around Syria, including within the context of the incident with a Turkish fighter jet". Plainly put, Moscow was unwilling to treat Friday's incident in total isolation. Nor was it prepared to censure Damascus.

Unrealistic demand
Indeed, the Russian stance has perceptibly hardened in the past week in response to a recent series of provocative rhetoric by the United States and London's stage-managed event on June 18 to smear Moscow's stance on Syria.

On Thursday, Lavrov bluntly warned that Russia would not countenance a replay of the Libyan scenario in Syria: "A replication of the Libyan scenario in Syria won't be admitted, and we [Russia] can guarantee this." Lavrov was dismissive of Western demands for the resignation of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, calling them "unrealistic". He insisted that "at least 50 percent" of Syrian people supported Assad's party in the recent parliamentary elections.

Again, on Sunday, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov told Interfax: "We have no doubt that the imposition of any kind of regime change in Damascus from outside, and the one-sided support of the opposition, is a straight path to plunge the country into an abyss of full civil war."

One major reason for this hardening of the Russian stance was Britain's publicity stunt on June 18. Moscow hit back by deciding that the ship carrying Russian helicopters to Syria, which was turned back after its insurance was cut, will resume its journey under escort from the Russian port of Murmansk after changing its flag to the Russian Standard.

The ship is apparently carrying up to 15 Mil Mi-25 helicopters that were repaired in Kaliningrad. The helicopters were originally bought by Assad's late father and predecessor Hafez al-Assad at the end of the 1980s. What made Moscow furious was that both Hague and his US counterpart, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, tried to propagate stories that the ship carried fresh arms supplies to Syria. Lavrov said:

"We are not going to make any excuses, because we did not breach anything. We violated neither international law nor UN Security Council resolutions nor our national legislation on export control ... We supply armaments under contracts, which imply purchase by Syria of primarily anti-aircraft means from us, which may be needed only in case of external aggression against the Syrian state. [Emphasis added.]

Interestingly, Lavrov said this on Sunday after the shooting down of the Turkish jet.

Momentary violation
It is against the totality of this background that the Syrian action against the Turkish aircraft needs to be weighed. Damascus has a reputation for "poker diplomacy". It may have conveyed a host of signals to Turkey (and its Western allies):
Syria's air-defense system is effective and lethal;
There will be a price to pay if Turkey keeps escalating its interference in Syria;
Turkey's military superiority has its limits;
The Syrian crisis can easily flare up into a regional crisis.

Yet Syria's official stance over Friday's incident has been very restrained, almost apologetic. To be sure, Syria cooperated with Turkey to locate the wreckage of the aircraft. Damascus admitted with a straight face that it was a regrettable incident but an inadvertent act and said the two countries should put it behind them. Syria meant no harm and the incident happened only because Syrian forces were under orders to shoot down foreign military aircraft that violated national airspace.

Turkey, of course, is fuming, knowing full well that Syria is a deep player. The Turkish government went into a huddle. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was expected to make a statement in parliament Tuesday. President Abdullah Gul said, "It is not possible to cover over a thing like this; whatever is necessary will be done."

Foreign Minister Davutoglu, however, has rejected the Syrian version of the incident. He said: "Our plane was shot down in international airspace, 13 nautical miles from Syria ... The plane did not show any sign of hostility toward Syria and was shot down about 15 minutes after having momentarily violated Syrian airspace." He dismissed Syria's plea that it did not know the plane was Turkish.

Davutoglu claimed that Turkey had intercepted radio communications from the Syrian side suggesting that they knew it was a Turkish aircraft. "We have both radar info and Syria's radio communications." There was no warning from Syria before the attack, he said. "The Syrians knew full well that it was a Turkish military plane and the nature of its mission."

Conceivably, Syria wanted Turkey to know that its decision to shoot down the jet was deliberate. An exacerbation of Turkish-Syrian tensions is in the cards. Turkey has since invoked Article 4 of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's charter, which says: "The Parties [member countries] will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened." A meeting of NATO ambassadors has been scheduled for Tuesday in Brussels.

Turkey is calibrating a strong response to the Syrian act. But a challenging time lies ahead for Erdogan. First and foremost, his interventionist policy in Syria does not enjoy the support of Turkey's opposition parties.

An obscure fracas
Knowing Erdogan's ability to whip up nationalistic sentiments, the opposition parties quickly concurred that Turkey must respond to incident. But they point out that Erdogan needlessly provoked Damascus and has destroyed Turkey's friendly ties with Syria.

The leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), Kemal Kilicdarglu, pointedly asked on Sunday after meeting with Erdogan: "Why have Turkey and Syria come to the brink of war?" The CHP's deputy head Faruk Logoglu, who is a distinguished former diplomat (ex-head of the Foreign Ministry and former ambassador to the US), said:

"We are very critical of the way AKP [Erdogan's Justice and Development Party] is handling the situation. There should be no outside intervention of any sort and any intervention must be mandated by a resolution of the UN Security Council. In the absence of such a resolution, any intervention would be unlawful."

In short, the Turkish opposition will be free to dissociate from any response that Erdogan decides on, especially if things go haywire downstream.

Second, aside from an enthusiastic statement of support of Turkey and condemnation of Syria by British Foreign Secretary Hague, the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have refrained from taking sides, although Davutoglu spoke to them personally. Everyone is counseling Ankara to show restraint, including UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

Third, Article 4 of the NATO treaty stops short of the explicit mention of possible armed responses cited in Article 5. The NATO countries would know that Turkish aircraft have been repeatedly violating Syrian airspace in the recent weeks and Damascus has now retaliated.

The reaction by German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle was that he was "greatly worried" by the incident and would urge a "thorough investigation"; he then welcomed Turkey's "cool-headed reaction".

But the point is, even within Turkey, there is skepticism about what really happened. The veteran Turkish editor Yousuf Kanli wrote:

"Did the plane violate Syrian airspace? ... On the other hand, why was the Turkish reconnaissance plane flying so low, in an area close to a Russian base, and why did it keep on going in and out of Syrian airspace so many times in the 15-minute period before it was downed? Was it testing the air-defense capabilities of Syria (or the Russian base) before an intervention which might come later this year?"

Not many NATO member countries would want to get involved in the obscure fracas. At best, Turkey can expect statements of solidarity, but equally, Damascus would also have estimated carefully that the probability of any concerted NATO action on the ground is low.

Fourth, the painful reality is that Turkey's most ardent allies in the present situation, who have encouraged Ankara on the path of intervention in Syria, are of absolutely no use today - Saudi Arabia and Qatar. They are nowhere in a position to engage Syria militarily. Turkey, in short, is left all by itself to hit back at Syria.

Fifth, any Turkish military steps against Syria would be a highly controversial move regionally. Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari (who, interestingly, visited Moscow recently for consultations over Syria) voiced the widely held regional opinion when he warned of a "spillover the crisis into neighboring countries", including Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey itself.

Finally, the UN has announced the holding of an international conference on Syria next Saturday in Geneva. Besides, Clinton is due to visit Russia early this week and Syria is likely to figure in her talks with Lavrov. Ankara cannot afford to take precipitate steps on the eve of the conference. At any rate, Russia has warned against any foreign intervention in Syria - and that precludes any military move by Turkey.

War by other means
The Syrian Foreign Ministry spokesman said on Sunday: "Syria was merely exercising its right and sovereign duty and defense. There is no enmity between Syria and Turkey, but political tension [exists] between the two countries. What happened was an accident and not an assault as some like to say, because the plane was shot while it was in Syrian airspace and flew over Syrian territorial waters."

The taunt is a bitter pill to swallow for a sultan. Ankara now claims it has radio intercepts to show that the order to shoot down the aircraft came from Damascus knowing fully well it had a Turkish flag while on a "a routine training flight and undertaking a national radar-system test in respect of national security over recent developments on the Mediterranean coast".

Erdogan has had time before Tuesday's meeting to finesse some vaziyeti kurtaran bahane (which translates from Turkish as "face-saving excuse") to maintain his dignity and prestige in front of the parliament and the nation. But then, this is a shame he brought down on himself, since all protagonists would know that the Turkish jet was undertaking a risky mission off the Russian naval base of Tartus.

The influential Turkish commentator Murat Yetkin wrote on Monday, "It is clear that the incident will result in increased pressure on Syria and its supporters, mainly Russia. But what Bashar al-Assad cares for seems to be keeping his chair and the Russian naval base in Tartus strong, whatever the cost, also knowing that neither the Turkish government, nor the opposition and people, want war."

Yetkin was sure that "Turkey will do everything to make Syria pay for the attack", but "payment doesn't mean war, there are other options".

In reality, Damascus has put a double whammy on Turkey. It not only lost a Phantom and its two pilots but is now under compulsion to take the loss calmly, exercising self-restraint.

Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Super Moderator
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I have long admired the work of Bhadrakumar, even if I do not always like his views or implications.

The fact that he has served in Both Russia (when SU) and Turkey does give him a level on insider knowledge and insight that deserves reading with respect.

From Asif

Ok heres another story as its emerges

just a few days ago Syrian Mig21 defected to Jordan, since then Syrian airdefence has been under orders to down any aircraft which is deemed to defecting from its airspace

under this scenario Syrian airdefences didnt think twice and engaged the Turkish Jet, i was thinking, how did Syria manage to grow so much guts to openly engage Turkish fighter aircraft, they would not be so irresponsible because its asking for trouble

after realising it was a Turkish jet Syria has actually co-operated with Turkey on all levels and both countrys have been searching for the downed aircraft, the navys of both nations have searched the waters

so now it seems like it could simply have been a mis-understanding and mis-communication, guess we will have to wait for more details but now the dynamic has changed altogether

A defecting jet will usually make a rush for the nearest border as quickly as possible. It will also no doubt use its FoF to help prevent drawing undue attention to itself.

The Turkish Phantom was entering into Syrian Airspace from outside, and did it seems a number of times. This is not something a defector is likely to do.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
View attachment 6586
Turkey has strong feelings towards their Central Asian Turkish brothers, including the Uighurs(not on the map of independent Turkish countries) and wants to be the champion of all Turkish causes because Turkey sees herself as the mightiest Turkish nation. It can be compared to Chinese concerns over violence against oversea Chinese in Indonesia or US special relations with the other Anglo-Saxon countries.
Saying anything about defending Turks somewhere is a cheap way to gather sympathies in Turkey and the risk of an adverse backlash in the case of the Uighurs was not severe enough. If there are enough Turkish tribes in Syria, like in Iraq, Turkey can easily gather the internal support for crossing her border in arms again to interfere in a neighbour state. About 7.5% of Syrian population, most of them concentrated in the insurgent north, are Turkish speaking Turks and additional about 10% of the Syrian population are claimed to be of Turkish descend, but speaking Arabic.

Turkey does not need any "internal support" as you put it, as Turkey has a million man standing army

And Turkey and China have big trade and are not in any sort of direct confrontation, Turkey has also bought Chinese multiple rocket launching systems and ballistic short range missiles

Turkey has a very long and rich history, Ottoman Empire reached from Caspian Sea, to all the land around the Black Sea and far West to Balkans and North to Vienna, as such they have influence in all these regions and important player in these territorys

also Turkey and Pakistan are close allies, and so is Pakistan and China, as a result we see close co-operation between the 3 countrys, Pakistan will do anything it can to balance out any differences between China and Turkey

politics is politics its a dirty business
 
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